Need Help Identifying Rifle Components

[sse]

A buddy gave me this barrel, stock and a shoe box of parts, with instructions to "put it together"...LOL  This was acquired by his late father 20, or more, years ago.

I'm interested in learning whether this collection represents an identifiable style/maker, etc., plus any other information of significance.
I recognized the lock plate shape and have seen some descriptions of similar as being 'late Ketland'. 

The triggers have 'Made in Belgium" stamped on them. 

The barrel, with a bore appearing to be smaller than .40 cal, has the prominent stamp as shown, which is underneath when placed in the stock. 

On the breech plug, there is a stamp saying 'Made in England'.

Stamped on the forward tab of the trigger guard are the letters "R (or P) KERN".  The last letter is cut off, but does look like an 'N'.  The trailing tab has the numeral '1' stamped on it.

Also, the butt plate tip extends past the wood for some reason. 

Any clarification would be most appreciated.  If further information is needed, please ask.   




















 

[galamb]

Turner Kirkland is the one who started Dixie Gun Works.

It looks like you have an early "kit" there that was somewhat "generic".

The trigger guard and the butt plate look "Ohio'ish".

The patchbox might be an attempt at a Vogler style (North Carolina) - maybe.

The lock would have required shaping - in it's current state I think you would call it a "gunmakers" lock.

All in all it would be my guess that someone started the kit and got disillusioned after doing a pretty poor job...

[sse]

Thanks for the comments.  I have no knowledge of these things, yet looking at the stock in-letting, and such, had a hunch his dad may have made a try at it.

FWIW, his dad was a gifted wood-worker and carver.

[frogwalking]

Turner's early kits were intended to be Tennessee rifles, although the trigger guard and patchbox lid definitely are not Tennessee style.  Back in those days, most people may not have been as knowledgeable and particular as they are today.  There was not a lot of information readily available to the general public.  Having said that, Turner liked eagles.

[sse]

There are some little stars and fishes in the shoe box, too...!  I saw those for sale, too, on the TOW web site.  The butt plate is very unusual and the only thing I have seen that comes close is from the Vincent brothers, and that is simply from looking at the web catalogs.

While this kit may not be representative of a given style, it is definitely representative of what was available to the hobbyist in the late 20th century through an iconic supplier, before research, parts availability and the internet whipped everybody into a frenzy. 

[Hungry Horse]

Turner Kirkland's early kits were everything but Tennessee style. They were mostly a miss mosh of parts from different eras, and styles, in mostly brass, but occasionally german silver ( an option) furniture. Turner didn't make his line of southern poor boys until later. The flintlock is a Dixie F 1 with the rear of the lock plate cropped square. The lock could be Belgian, or Italian, depending on when it was made. These locks were purchased by many of the early builders. It doesn't have a fly in it, so you either have to use a single trigger or the double set single phase shown. Most of these kits could be purchased as a basic kit, and the fancy patch box, and inlays, were extra. Usually the quality was about middle of the road at best, and far short of that at worst. Barrels were usually not all that wonderful.

                      Hungry Horse

[sse]

Thanks a bunch for that insight.  

The larger pieces are heavy, I figured pewter...the pipes are turning yellow, I believe a characteristic  of German silver.

My bud's dad was a real mechanical type, wouldn't doubt if he saw an ad in Popular Mechanics, or similar, e.g. "Build Your Own Muzzleloader"

He did have an interest in the golden age and later arms, though, because when he passed my bud gave me a stack of his books about American firearms, not technical, mostly just presentation pics, with short descriptions.

[frogwalking]

I doubt anyof the parts are pewter.  German silver can be weighty if the parts are thick, such as the buttplate.  German silver is essentially white brass.  I built a number of rifles back in the '60s from Turner's parts.  All shot fine.  If I had the  bunch, I would proceed to finish up the rifle and go shoot it.  The stock looks plain, and if so, stain it dark.  Have a good time. 

[sse]

Thanks...!

[whitebear]

When you finish inletting the butplate to fit, install the toe plate and if the toe of the butplate still extends past the bottom of the stock saw it off and file it smooth to match the line of the toeplate.  Although this is not a high dollar fancy kit it can be a wonderful learning experience.

[sse]

Thanks for the advice...much appreciated.


"...it can be a wonderful learning experience."

Was afraid someone would say that...LOL

[Hungry Horse]

 
The good news is, the gigantic hideous lock panels gives you plenty of wood to work with. The bad news is its going to take time, and care, to worry them down to a reasonable size. remember smaller is better in this case. Be sure to look at a lot of pictures of original guns of this period. Beings all the furniture is very late flint, or early percussion style, a lot of carving would be out of character. Inlays however would be quite in keeping with this time period.

                             Hungry Horse

[KLMoors]

Is that front sight dovetailed as deeply as it looks into the barrel?  Also, is the rear sight dovetailed in yet?

[blaksmth]

I NOTICED THE SIGHT ALSO IT LOOKS WAY TOO DEEP

[whitebear]

I have a replacement lock, one of the 1F or F1 flintlocks that is in used but good shape .  If you are interested PM me.

[sse]

I have a replacement lock, one of the 1F or F1 flintlocks that is in used but good shape .  If you are interested PM me.

Thanks very much...I may take you up on that, but I won't be able to decide for a while.  If you're in a hurry to sell it, don't hold up on my account.

To the fellas curious about the sights, see pics.  I wonder if my bud's dad did that to the front sight, or maybe done by the supplier to DGW...?

[sse]

The flintlock is a Dixie F 1

one of the 1F or F1 flintlocks

I'm not really sure what these comments mean.  Is this nomenclature from DGW's catalog or their parts identification system?

[KLMoors]

Hmmm.. the rear sight looks more "normal" in depth to me. That front sight is way deeper than normal. There's a lot less pressure out at the front sight, and I'm not sure if it is an issue being cut that deep.   Hopefully some of the guys on here that are more familiar with any risks it might pose will chime in.

[whitebear]

The flintlock is a Dixie F 1

one of the 1F or F1 flintlocks

I'm not really sure what these comments mean.  Is this nomenclature from DGW's catalog or their parts identification system?

That was at one time, before they joined the computer age, the nomenclature for that specific lock.  The percussion lock of the same style was the 1P.

[Hungry Horse]

sse: 

  I would grab the lock, because the internals will be the same, and parts for these locks are hard to get. JMO. This barrel looks like it might be in the .40 cal. range, did you mention the caliber?

                        Hungry Horse

                 

[whitebear]

If it were me I would drift the front sight out and check the depth of the dovetail.  The rifle is not sighted in yet so you won't loose any accuracy by removing the sight.  On a closer look at the sight I am thinking that excess on the sight base that stuck out past the dovetail might have been peened down onto the side flats.  If that is the case then you may be OK on the dovetail.  If the dovetail really is that deep you might ought to consider cutting the barrel back to just behind the dovetail, just enough to remove all the dovetail

[whitebear]

The lock that I have has a rounded tail rather than being bobbed of.  You could cut it to match your present lock or inlet the extra into your stock.

[sse]

"I am thinking that excess on the sight base that stuck out past the dovetail might have been peened down onto the side flats."

That was my guess...PM sent.

I really appreciate all of the comments.insight provided...

[sse]

"This barrel looks like it might be in the .40 cal. range, did you mention the caliber?"

I don't have a gauge, but it looks like smaller than .40 to me.  Guess I should just get out a ruler, measure the flats, bore...

[Hungry Horse]

 If it is less than .40 cal. you are probably safe, even it the dovetail is overly deep. Many years ago, when shooters were prone to build the rat rod versions of long rifles, just to jerk ever bodies chain, I saw a guy shooting a .36 Cal. rifle with a barrel he made out of a piece of 5/8ths rebar. He had all the elbow room he wanted on the firing line. As far as I know it never blew up either.

                     Hungry Horse