Author Topic: Main spring w/roller (Read 7879 times)

Hungry Horse · « **on:** January 17, 2014, 06:42:49 AM »

Since i put roller in the title, I might as well address this to Mr. Roller, since he seems to be the board lock expert. I took the lock out off the Lehigh rifle, that was given me for Christmas. and Low and behold, it has a roller on the main spring. I have never seen this. Has anybody else? The lock appears to have been originally flint. It probably had a roller on the frizzen spring as well. The holes in the plate were so beautifully filled that I assumed the gun was original percussion until I removed the lock.It is marked london warranted.

Hungry Horse

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2014, 07:15:50 AM »

A friend of mine has a Massachusetts state militia musket built by a civilian gunsmith around a military proofed barrel in the 1820's. It used a Ketland lock that had a roller on the main spring - I imagine the original frizzen had a roller too. The lock is almost identical in size to the Chambers classic Ketland. Do you have some photos of the Lehigh?
-Eric

Bob Roller · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2014, 03:07:15 PM »

Good morning HH and Eric. I have seen a number of locks in years past with "rollered"mainsprings and the first one belonged to Wes Kindig.It was a lone spring that needed a replacement roller and was a sporting rifle type.
I have made a couple of these but don't work with this type of spring anymore.
These springs were an obvious attempt to speed up the function of the mainspring and as long as the roller doesn't lock up on the shaft it rolls on,it probably worked.The one that Wes Kindig sent had a flat place on the roller and while it still functioned.the advantage of the roller was lost.
A local shooter had an original fowler with a small Ketland lock with reinforced cock that had a rollered mainspring that seemed to work very well and he shot it a good bit over the years.
I hope this helps.

Bob Roller

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2014, 06:16:08 PM »

I'm sure this was a British innovation in an attempt to reduce friction and speed up a lock. And to increase sales... I encountered this on a English fowling piece by John Harman, which was likely made in the late 1750's or first half of the 1760's. This lock also had a roller on the frizzen. I was surprised to see these features at such an early date. Here is a lock I built based on this example :

These rollers ride on little screws. This is how the original was put together. Notice the straight lower leg to the spring. Yes, it matters to me

.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2014, 07:00:21 PM »

This lock for all intents, and purposes, looks very much like the Maslin locks, seen on modern replicas. The engraving is not exactly the same, but very similar. The size and shape of the lock is almost exactly the same as the Maslin. My evaluation of the guns short life as a percussion, is re-enforced by the fact that there is virtually no erosion in the recess of the hammer face. This lock has a half cock notch, but it wasn't engaging while the lock was in the stock. The lock has not fly in the tumbler, and no provision for one.

Hungry Horse

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2014, 07:16:32 PM »

I just checked the blog, and found that the smooth rifle shown on Wednesday has an Ashmore marked lock, that has the identical engraving on the tail section as the percussion lock I have described. The trigger guard is the same guard used on my rifle as well. The trigger is quite similar, but mine is made of brass, and is cut a little fancier in the web at the rear. The patch box on my gun is the same type without side panels, but is pierced, and engraved.

Hungry Horse

Bob Roller · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2014, 04:10:58 PM »

Jim,
Did you keep track of the time on making this lock?It's a beautiful job and one to be proud of.

Bob Roller

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2014, 05:31:31 PM »

Thanks Bob. I don't know the hours the lock took, but I think it was about a month's work. Too much for sure! Everything was made from bar stock. Makes me tired to think about doing it.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2014, 08:02:09 PM »

Jim,
Even with a milling machine,that is a labor intensive job because in spite of the
fine end mills,the final detail is done with files in the hands of someone who knows how to
use them.The milling machine manufactures shavings only.
Is that the lock on the rifle I saw in Muzzleloader Magazine? THAT is one fine looking job.

Bob Roller

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2014, 11:59:55 PM »

Well, thank you. Yep, it's the lock on the fowling piece shown in the Muzzleloader article.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2014, 12:06:22 AM »

Mr. Roller;

Is it common for these english locks to have very thin plates? This locks plate is about half the thickness of a modern plate.

Hungry Horse

Bob Roller · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2014, 06:42:18 AM »

Hungry Horse,
I have never taken a real close look at the lock plate thickness so I can't give an answer.
I had some cast parts for Manton locks that seemed rather thin and I didn't use them because
the cock and frizzen looked flimsy as well.

Bob Roller

b bogart · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2014, 05:46:18 PM »

The Manton set Mr Roller just sold to me suprised me. The thickness of the "bolster" seemed rather thin compared to modern locks. The French style cock will probably be replaced, I do not want the cock to stop on the "fence" behind the pan. Maybe we just got used to the beefier modern stuff??? Are we harder on our equipment than in olden times? I'll quit because I do not want to hijack this thread.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2014, 06:04:45 PM »

I think the locks with the French style cock were little used and
they were case hardened.I may have another gooseneck cock
that may be compatible with those parts and if I do,you can
have it at no charge.L&R has a double throated cock that might work
and it's in their RPL series.I made one small Manton using one and
once I got used to the appearance,I liked it.I would prefer it on a hunting
rifle over the gooseneck style.

Bob Roller

b bogart · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2014, 06:42:45 PM »

No Mr Roller, I was not complaining. Just trying to add to the conversation. I think I have a couple that will work! The casting appears to be from an original. and it seems more dainty than modern stuff. The different things they tried for these locks, such as the Main Spring rollers, frizzens spring rollers, etc., is what makes them interesting. Some may have been gimmicks, some may have actually improved function, and when we really look closely, the more they look the same the more differences they possess.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2014, 02:50:42 AM »

Gentlemen, I just gently tried the tang screw on my new/old (Lehigh?) acquisition, after much soaking with Kroil. It came right out. I found that only one barrel pin was holding the barrel in place. The front tenion was pulled loose from the barrel, and the rearmost was sheared off flush with the barrel flat. Like the trigger, and plate, they were made of brass sheet metal, and very shallowly dovetailed. Although there was no visible signature on the top barrel flat, there is a name stamped on the bottom. It may be the builder, but more likely the barrel maker. stamped in capital block letters is I SCHOLB. The (I) could be the right side of an H,M,N. And, the (L) could be an E, depending on how good, or bad the stamping is. The bottom of the barrel was still bright in many places, indicating it was not browned, or blued, at least on the bottom. Have any of you seen this name before ? or something similar?

Hungry Horse

mr. no gold · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2014, 03:08:49 AM »

Scholb was a somewhat prolific barrel maker up in the Berks/Lehigh area. I have a Henry Hunsicker rifle with a Scholb barrel and have seen his barrels on others by different makers. If we are fortunate enough for Patrick Hornberger to come on board here, he is a wealth of information of all of the barrel makers in that region. Think that he is descended out of one of the prominent barrel making families.
Dick

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2014, 05:08:06 AM »

Dick;

Thank you so much for that information. That confirms what I though about the region this gun was built in. This barrel is about .45 cal. smooth. I don't know if it ever had riflings. It is set up for a 3/8ths ramrod, so it couldn't have been much smaller caliber. The barrel tapers from 7/8ths" to .600 at the muzzle. It is currently percussion but wasn't shot much as such, since there is very little pitting around the drum or on the lock plate. The majority of its working life it was a flinter in my opinion.

Hungry Horse

mr. no gold · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2014, 07:57:47 AM »

HH, you are very welcome. Is there any chance that you might post some photos of the rifle here? T'would be a joy to see it; wish I had folks who thought enough of me to give me a nice gun like this one must be. Congratulations.
Dick

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #19 on:** February 08, 2014, 07:05:24 PM »

I am going to reassemble the gun as soon as I stabilize the fractured forearm. I will try to post some pictures then.
I am one of those guys that never sees any part of a genuinely old long rifle as not worth a closer look. which means, since I live on the left coast, a long way from where these works of art were produced, I see a lot of broken, and burned pieces. This Lehigh/Berks rifle is the most delicately built example I have ever seen. The wood along the sides of the barrel are of a veneer thickness. The barrel channel is so close to the ramrod groove that it is split at virtually every inlet over the years, be it barrel lugs, ramrod pipes, or noise cap. Although this sounds like a disadvantage, which at this time it is, in this guns heyday, it was a beautifully balanced, slender, longrifle of exceptional beauty.

Hungry Horse

mr. no gold · « **Reply #20 on:** February 08, 2014, 08:36:25 PM »

Can't wait to see it! This sounds like a screamer of a rifle. Those 'buggy whip' guns are just the best. Unfortunately, a number of them were ill used, but that doesn't detract from their intrinsic beauty. That gun was someone's pride and joy back when. Looks like it is once again. Yippee.
I know what you mean about west coast collecting; this is Colt and Winchester Country and any Kentucky that comes by is a good piece to grab.
You take what you can find usually. Forget collecting by school, or make, or other criterion out west. From earlier posts I gather that you live up in the wine country. Some of us live south of you, down in the tortilla country. Good luck with the little old lady, may she get whole soon.
Dick

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #21 on:** February 08, 2014, 09:16:11 PM »

Both of my other long rifles are late percussions, more than likely built in California. They were built in an age, when target shooting was about the only thing still done with a muzzleloading rifle. Although they are slim, and trim, by modern standards, they are absolutely obese in comparison to this gun. I tend to believe this gun was brought west by a family, that had little, or no, actual knowledge of the western landscape, and brought the gun they already had. This gun being only .45 cal., and smoothbore, would be of little use in the west. Larger game, and longer range, would make this gun not the go to firearm in my estimation. I assume it was converted to percussion before the journey west, and may very well have had its barrel shortened to 42", to better fit the confines of the wagon. Its complete condition, existent finish, and lack of major modifications makes me believe it didn't spend time in the gold fields, during the gold rush. I have seen a few of those gold camp longrifles, and they are enough to make a grown man cry.
I do have to say I live in the wine country, but that is a new designation. In my youth Lake County was known for its Bartlett pears, walnuts, and hops, along with a big tourist trade. Now its all about grapes, and wine.

Hungry Horse

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Author Topic: Main spring w/roller (Read 7879 times)