Rifleman's knife

[Dennis Glazener]

One thing we don’t often discuss is how many of the 18th century trade knives and other belt knives had the bottom of the back of the blade well below the grip.  (The two pics you linked have blade styles like this.)   This blade style actually forms a rudimentary “guard” to keep ones fingers from slipping forward on the cutting edge, just as many modern “butcher knives’ STILL do.

I started to mention this but didn't since I don't know how far back this type of blade was commonly used.

This is something I doubt seriously anyone will ever be able to solve. A friend and I were discussing this subject this morning and what kept popping up is: If guards were common on rifleman knives why is there an absence of originals/relics from the 18th century. We seem to have plenty of rifles, hawks/hatchets etc. If they were common as some think, why would we not see more originals today? I may be wrong but there seem to be plenty that survived without guards/bolsters, what would be different about the rifleman style knives with guards? Just curious.
Dennis

[Artificer]

One thing we don’t often discuss is how many of the 18th century trade knives and other belt knives had the bottom of the back of the blade well below the grip.  (The two pics you linked have blade styles like this.)   This blade style actually forms a rudimentary “guard” to keep ones fingers from slipping forward on the cutting edge, just as many modern “butcher knives’ STILL do.

I started to mention this but didn't since I don't know how far back this type of blade was commonly used.

Dennis

Dennis,
After re-reading my earlier quote, I guess I was too succinct and not clear on how common this style of knife blade was in the 18th century.  The style of blade (that was well below the grip in the rear of the blade) was VERY common on 18th century trade knives and it was common on belt knives in the 17th as well.  Matter of fact, the style goes back to the 1500’s on iron/steel knives (both eating/table knives and belt/utilitarian knives).  It seems to have come as an improvement on what we today might call “roach belly” knife blades from the 1400’s. 

Gus

[Artificer]

Dennis,

Since your website mentions your Gillepsie ancestors and if you wanted to portray a Rifleman from that side of the family, then it opens up more options on what kind of belt knife you might have carried, depending on the time period. 

The Southern Colonies, especially, were used by the British as “dumping grounds” for Scots who the British wanted out of Scotland.  MANY were sent to the Carolina’s, Virginia and Georgia  (One of my ancestors was a Scot who fought against the British in the Uprisings of the ’15 or ’19, was wounded and somehow survived, and then given the choice between forced colonization or hanging.  GLAD he chose forced colonization to Virginia!  GRIN.)   So there was Scottish Influence there in the early/mid 1700’s.   

Setting aside the traditional Scottish Dirk because it was useless for skinning/butchering, we should look to utilitarian knives.  Unfortunately, I lost my files when my old computer died and I had some links to 17th and 18th century Scottish utilitarian knives.  Can’t find them right now, but I was able to find the example of a “Sgian Achles” (Armpit Knife)  of the mid 18th century, from the  Royal Museum of Scotland in the following link.  Though this knife is a specialized knife and upscale from a common knife (having a brass bolster and end cap), Scottish belt and utilitarian knives were often of this same blade shape (though different lengths and widths) and the handles were often wood, though a surprising number of even the lesser expensive and even utility knives that have survived in Scotland from the  17th and 18th century periods,  have antler grips. 
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_ab_sgian.html

OK, JUST found one link showing a 17th early 18th century Scottish Hunting Knife (Grolloch) and small skinning knife.  Of course the antler on these knives came from the Red Deer of Scotland.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f244/repro-18th-c-scottish-knife-65242/

Spanish trade knives are usually not mentioned often as their influence was much more limited than English, French or Dutch Trade knives.  Some of them followed what is referred to as “Mediteranean” knife styles.  I don’t know a whole lot about these knives as they are outside my areas of interest, except that it is generally thought early Bowie Knives were developed from this style knife.  I could not find a really good link for this style knife, but here is one of a replica:
http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=235788&messages=9&CATEGORY=9

What most of these trade knives or hunting knives demonstrate is a LACK of a guard.  If guards were thought necessary, then there would have been more trade knives made with them. 

I know I’m going a little out on a limb here, but I personally believe a guard on an 18th century knife often or even usually meant its purpose was as a fighting knife and not a hunting/utilitarian knife.  The guard was meant as much to keep the enemy’s knife from sliding down your blade and onto your hand as it was to keep your hand from slipping forward onto your own blade, IMO. 
Gus. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Since your website mentions your Gillepsie ancestors and if you wanted to portray a Rifleman from that side of the family, then it opens up more options on what kind of belt knife you might have carried, depending on the time period.  

Gus,
I am pretty well covered by having 5 documented Great Grandfathers that were Rev War Patriots. Also several others that I think fought during the war. John Gillespie was with the Botetourt County VA Riflemen, a militia group. Samuel King was with Morgan's VA riflemen, Surry Davis was with a SC milita group and George Isaac Glazener was with a Ft Cumberland MD milita group, all GGG GF's. Then I have a GGG Uncle that was was with the Washington County VA Milita at King's Mountain. I suspect that all of them carried some type of knife in their belts. That's why I have an interest in what types were used.
Dennis

[T.C.Albert]

Would the Mississippi cane knife Squire Boone forged up be a rev war period example? I think its believed he made it well after the rev war when he lived in Mississippi, but was it a style he and others would have used for years prior, or a specialty one off thing?

Also, wasnt Fergusons jewel hilted dagger taken at Kings mountain too, so maybe similar Highland dirk styles were in use by others?
Just wondering.
tca

[Elnathan]

Would the Mississippi cane knife Squire Boone forged up be a rev war period example? I think its believed he made it well after the rev war when he lived in Mississippi, but was it a style he and others would have used for years prior, or a specialty one off thing?

This one, I assume: http://goldenhawks.org/rumpingproductions/Handout_008-Squire_Boones_Knife.jpg

I'd like to hear what others have to say, but it looks 19th century to me. The arrangement of the five pins was common in the 19th century, but unknown in the 18th, IIRC, and the blade shape and overall proportions look bowie-ish to me. If the provenance is correct, he would have made it sometime between 1799 and 1804, but looks much later to me and the provenance seems a little thin.


 

Also, wasnt Fergusons jewel hilted dagger taken at Kings mountain too, so maybe similar Highland dirk styles were in use by others?
Just wondering.
tca

Never heard about Ferguson's dagger, and I wouldn't assume that it was a dirk just because Ferguson was Scottish. The only jeweled dirks I can recall seeing are 19th century ceremonial pieces (and ugly, useless things to boot) and not every Scotsman was a Highlander nor would every Highlander want to wear Gaelic dress or accessories. The majority of Scots were trying to integrate themselves into the British Empire at the time, which meant supporting the Hanoverian throne (contrary to popular belief, the Scots were prone towards Toryism and monarchical rule, while Whiggism and opposition to royal authority were partially linked to English ethnic identity. The Scots-Irish were exceptions, but they were quite different from the Highlanders in all kinds of ways), and Highland culture was linked with support of the Jacobites. It wasn't until Walter Scott and the 19th century Romantic Period that Highland dress became "cool" again. So, it seems very unlikely to me that a Scottish officer outside of a Highland regiment would be sporting a Highland dirk.

I also don't think that there were many Highlanders that ended up along the frontier, apart from soldiers on active duty. IIRC, here in NC the Highlanders settled down in the backcountry until the Revolution, where they rose against to support George III and were promptly suppressed at Moore's Creek, whereupon most of them moved to Canada. Georgia might be the exception.

Dirks themselves are kind of a mystery, BTW. They may not have been all that common to begin with, being limited to the upper class of what was only a small subset of the Scottish population to begin with, though I also recall hearing that there are many plainer dirks languishing in the basements of museums, whose existence might indicate that they were also used by the lower orders.

[LRB]

  I know little of Scottish knives, but fully agree with Elnathan on the Boone knife. To me, it screams of 19th c. origin, and after 1830. IMHO, which may be of little value.

[Artificer]

I agree with and compliment Elnathan on his discernment about the number and arrangement of pins making the Boone knife a 19th century piece.  As to the style of blade possibly being earlier, I don’t know.  I am not sure anyone could say without dated archeological dug examples of other cane knives.  The clipped point and general blade style are reminiscent of Spanish/Mediterranean style knives that also influenced early Bowie knives, but that doesn’t mean anything without other documentation.  It could well of been that was just the way Boone made it as to his personal preference. 

I don’t know if it has ever been written that Major Ferguson had a Dirk with him at King’s Mountain or even before that.  Normally the accounts just talk about him wearing a blue checked shirt over his uniform and mentioning his silver whistle he used to move his Forces and Reserves.   He came to America first as a Captain of Green Uniformed Rangers/Experimental Rifle Corps, not Highland troops, so he may not have had a Dirk with him at all, though I don’t know one way or another.  If he did have one, as Elnathan pointed out, it would not have been “a jeweled one” as they came out much later in the 19th century. 

Gus

[jrb]

I don't mean to take this thread way off the original subject, but since dirks were mentioned, there was one (a large scottish style dirk blade)found a few years ago in an excavation in a Carolinas Catawba  village from the F+I war era.
There was a pdf that showed a photo of it and other objects with descriptions of the archaeological sites, but the website went down just a couple days ago.
I'm not suggesting it was a common thing by any stretch, just a very surprising object to be found.

[Elnathan]

I don't mean to take this thread way off the original subject, but since dirks were mentioned, there was one (a large scottish style dirk blade)found a few years ago in an excavation in a Carolinas Catawba  village from the F+I war era.
There was a pdf that showed a photo of it and other objects with descriptions of the archaeological sites, but the website went down just a couple days ago.
I'm not suggesting it was a common thing by any stretch, just a very surprising object to be found.

How 'bout that!
I found the article in my files and pulled the picture:


F&I War era. The handle and tang era is missing. I'd like to know how they made the identification as a dirk, as opposed to part of a sword blade - thickness, maybe? If it was a dirk it would have been a fairly new one, I think, as it doesn't show much profile taper, a late feature. Hard to tell much from the photo, though.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

[Artificer]

OK, just found another example of an early Scottish Knife I had lost when my old computer crashed.

http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/c-1750-scottish-dirk-dagger-knife

This one is unusual in that the rear of the blade looks to have been formed into a bolster all the way down the back of the blade thereby forming a rudimentary guard.. ( My eyes may be deceiving me, but I don’t believe that is a separate guard as I’ve seen a few original blades so forged.)  Many Scottish utilitarian and work knives had this general blade shape (without the bolster) in the late 17th through 18th century. 

With a blade length of 10.5 inches and an overall length of 16 inches, this is a large knife for the period with a handle that is as long or longer than normally found on period Scottish Dirks.  (Period Scottish Dirks often had handles we moderns would consider a bit short or even too short.)  Again, the handle is Red Deer antler.  The rounded tang washer is interesting and very basic. 

IF the date of 1750 for this knife is accurate (even to the decade of 1750 to 1760) it brings up some interesting speculation.  The 1746 Act of Proscription (after the Battle of Culloden) was rigidly enforced in the Scottish Highlands and though rarely mentioned, to a degree in the Lowlands as well.  NOTHING that looked anything like a traditional Scottish Dirk was allowed and even the wearing of Tartan Plaid was outlawed by the civilian populace.   (The ONLY Scots who were still allowed the “Manly Dress” of Kilts and to carry traditional Scottish Swords, Dirks, Sgian Dubh's were those in Scottish Regiments and some Provincial Troops loyal to the English King who patrolled the Highlands to enforce the “King’s Will.”)  Though a bit long for the larger knife in a hunting kit, this may have been one or made to look like one.  It also may have been made to look like a large butcher knife to get around the Act of Proscription. I’m sure a Highlander would have been in big trouble if he got caught openly wearing this knife, except possibly while hunting.  However, this is all speculation that cannot be proved today. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Proscription_1746

Gus

[Shreckmeister]

I have read fiction and documented acounts of the longhunters, etc. being called the longknives so my question is how long were these longknives?

There is still much debate on the origin of term "Long Knives" and I'm not sure anyone can state with certainty what the origin truly was.  I, personally, am in the camp with those who believe it came from the fact that some European Settlers (dating as early as Jamestown) used swords, that Native Americans never came up with independently as they did not have the technology to make them.  So because some of the colonists used swords, European Settlers were "Long Knives" in the 17th century.   Of course, iron/steel knives had a tendency to be a bit longer than the flint knives that Native American's made, so that too may be at least part of the reason for the term "Long Knives." 

Most excavated trade knives seem to be around 7" blade length size, though up to 9" was not completely uncommon and some were a bit shorter - basically "butcher knife" length blades and people chose the size they liked best just as we do today.   

Gus

    Thought I would post the description given by Dr. Malthus Ward in 1815 upon arrival to Kittanning
(Western PA) of the inhabitants of the area.  His observations in the remainder of the letter are very
specific, so I don't think he was taking liberty with the long knife aspect.

"A backwoodsman
sets as much by his rifle as an Arabian does by his steed, some of them
[are] elegant. A smooth barrel is seldom seen, and "shot gun" is a
common expression of contempt for a poor rifle. Instead of going to
the woods with an axe on his shoulder he may be seen 5 or 6 days
every week attended by 2 or 3 ugly dogs, having
in hand old rifle gun,
With buskin'd moccasins and cap of fox,
Fring'd hunting shirt, long knife &tomahawk
Tied on —and pouch and horn at side etc"

   It doesn't say how long or even describe the knife but it is tied on along with the hawk.

[Artificer]

Rob,

Neat quote.  Sounds like he was describing the backswoodsman in the winter because of the “cap of fox.”

Chuck Burrows mentioned on another forum that though belt loops on knife scabbards go back to Roman times, that some to many knife scabbards in the 18th century and early 19th century had leather wangs at the top of the scabbard to tie them to the belt or sash. 

Have to wonder what the author meant by the tomahawk being “tied on.”  Maybe it was also attached by tying with a single or some leather wangs. 

What this quote tells us is that both the terms “Long Knife” and “Tomahawk” must have been in common usage for a Doctor to have used those terms. 
Gus

[Artificer]

I don't mean to take this thread way off the original subject, but since dirks were mentioned, there was one (a large scottish style dirk blade)found a few years ago in an excavation in a Carolinas Catawba  village from the F+I war era.
There was a pdf that showed a photo of it and other objects with descriptions of the archaeological sites, but the website went down just a couple days ago.
I'm not suggesting it was a common thing by any stretch, just a very surprising object to be found.

How 'bout that!
I found the article in my files and pulled the picture:


F&I War era. The handle and tang era is missing. I'd like to know how they made the identification as a dirk, as opposed to part of a sword blade - thickness, maybe? If it was a dirk it would have been a fairly new one, I think, as it doesn't show much profile taper, a late feature. Hard to tell much from the photo, though.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

NEAT Photo!! 

Is the end of the blade (towards us in the picture) cut or broken straight or is there a bit of a tang showing?  I'm afraid I can't tell.

Gus

[Elnathan]

Is the end of the blade (towards us in the picture) cut or broken straight or is there a bit of a tang showing?  I'm afraid I can't tell.

No tang that I can see. I think I see the shoulders, though, so I think the tang broke off right behind the blade. It would be interesting to know if there were any metal pieces of the handle recovered - the brass fittings or lack thereof would tell us something about what style of hilt it had.

I had a look at another archeological report on some Catawba excavations, but it doesn't mention the dirk. Different site, I think.

[Artificer]

I would LOVE to get more details as to length, width, thickness and especially the shape of the blade in cross section as that might rule out some possible origins. . 

While it might be a dirk blade; it could be the blade from a hunting sword, hanger or the broken ends of other swords.  Something about it reminds me of the point end of a mid to late 17th century rapier, with the wider flat blades of that period ?
Gus

[jrb]

Regarding the term "long knives", i found this in a manuscript-book written by David Zeisberger, a Moravian missionary, at his mission home along the Muskingum river in Ohio in 1779-1780. The book, "David Zeisberger's History of the Northern American Indians in 18th Century Ohio, New York, and Pennsylvania."
 It's a little strange to read due to the punctuation.

"Since the late war with England all the Americans except the English in Canada, otherwise called by the Indians Virginians, are known as Big Knives, by the Nations because, from the beginning the Indians saw them and the Governor of Virginia on all occasions of negotiations with the Indians wearing long swords. Hence, they called them Choanschican and the Six Nations named them Assarigoa that is Big Knives, which name has been applied to all Virginians and has been extended from it to all Americans because the Virginians in this War negotiated most of the treaties with the Indians."