Author Topic: Rifleman's knife  (Read 40897 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Rifleman's knife
« on: January 19, 2014, 01:06:11 AM »
I have been interested in knowing more about original accouterments carried in the early days of the Rev War. One thing I would like to hear discussed is how was an original "rifleman" knife made? Did it normally have an iron guard similiar to this one on Old Dominion Forges site http://olddominionforge.com/Riflemansknife%200127101.jpg or one with poured pewter hilt similiar to these also on Old Dominion Forges site http://olddominionforge.com/IMG_5333.jpg
I believe I once heard that the early knives never had poured pewter bolsters.

No particular reason for linking to Old Dominion Forges Site other than both style of knife is shown. Both are great looking knives and I doubt many of the rifleman's knives were anywhere near as well made and nice looking as these are!
Dennis
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 01:07:17 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline LRB

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 01:53:42 AM »
  As far as I can find, guards were common on daggers, but would be rare on a single edged belt knife. Knives from broken or shortened swords would be an exception to this, and might often be found with the guard still mounted. As to the pewter, I can find little to no documentation, but also no hard evidence against its use. 18 th c. knives, other than trade types, are very difficult to find documented. Chris Immel, Stophel,  tried for a year or so to find pics of 18th c. belt knives, but finally gave up. 18th c. knives are a shrouded and foggy area as far as documentable specimens. !7th c. and 19th c., seem easy enough, but for some reason, 18th c. got kinda left out, as far as surviving specimens that can trusted to be from then. American examples anyway. Talk to Kyle Willyard, he may can help. I have made a few with pewter, but in general avoid it when possible, until I see good evidence for its use as bolsters and or pommels. To make a representation American knife, and play it safe, it would be best to avoid pewter, brass, guards, and use only iron pins and mountings. A silver washer or name plate might be acceptable to use if to represent an affluent owner.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 02:17:22 AM »
  As far as I can find, guards were common on daggers, but would be rare on a single edged belt knife. Knives from broken or shortened swords would be an exception to this, and might often be found with the guard still mounted. As to the pewter, I can find little to no documentation, but also no hard evidence against its use. 18 th c. knives, other than trade types, are very difficult to find documented. Chris Immel, Stophel,  tried for a year or so to find pics of 18th c. belt knives, but finally gave up. 18th c. knives are a shrouded and foggy area as far as documentable specimens. !7th c. and 19th c., seem easy enough, but for some reason, 18th c. got kinda left out, as far as surviving specimens that can trusted to be from then. American examples anyway. Talk to Kyle Willyard, he may can help. I have made a few with pewter, but in general avoid it when possible, until I see good evidence for its use as bolsters and or pommels. To make a representation American knife, and play it safe, it would be best to avoid pewter, brass, guards, and use only iron pins and mountings. A silver washer or name plate might be acceptable to use if to represent an affluent owner.
Thanks Wick, good information, I was surprised to hear about the absence of a guard. With slippery hands (blood, water etc) its so easy to let your hand slip on the handle down onto the blade I would have thought guards would have been more common.
Thanks
Dennis
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Online alyce-james

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 02:38:55 AM »
Good evening Dennis. I share your interest and questions about the style of early American Rev. War belt knives. I wonder if you think the book "American Primitive Knives 1770 - 1870", by Gordon B. Minnis. 1983, would be of any assistance ?? Great topic, looking foreward to read more information. AJ
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 02:49:23 AM »
Quote
Good evening Dennis. I share your interest and questions about the style of early American Rev. War belt knives. I wonder if you think the book "American Primitive Knives 1770 - 1870", by Gordon B. Minnis. 1983, would be of any assistance ?? Great topic, looking foreward to read more information. AJ
AJ I don't have that book but from what I have seen about it its a good book. I doubt it has what we are looking for since I feel sure Wick and/or Chris would have seen or heard about it.
Dennis
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 03:44:25 AM »
Us moderns havent seen all of the originals so I would think that there could have been at least a few made with guards. I like the idea of something stoping my hand in those situations like Dennis mentioned, blood,rain,snow or actually in a combat situation. With that said, I think they fit in a sheath better without a guard.

Offline LRB

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 04:47:50 AM »
  I have the Minnis book, and he is as honest as he could be on dating. It is a good book. One problem we all have with history is being able to Monday morning quarterback it. We cannot think as they did, as we simply, in general, do not face their day to day problems or life styles. It is easy to say a guard is necessary to protect ones hand, however, how many kitchen and professional butcher knives have guards. The hunter, or rifleman used his knife as a do all tool, and not for a maybe once in a life time combat weapon. Not every woodsman, or rifleman had the opportunity to have to use a blade in combat. It was for the most part a day to day working tool. Most descriptions of the riflemans or hunters knife is that of a common butcher or scalper of the period. They were imported by the tens of thousands, and cheap to buy, easy to find. The affluent may have had a knife of higher class, but the rev war rifleman was most often a common man, with common assets. All in all, the common butcher or scalper would handle any situation adequately. If a guardless butcher knife was prone to causing injury to the user in a bloody or wet use condition, they would have phased themselves out long ago. This basic knife, or similar knife, is still the choice of those who process meat and wild game. My deer processor favors the simple Russell Ripper knife for 90% of his work, and wears out a half dozen per deer season. I know because I usually have to grip them for him as he buys just the blades. Yes, there are a few period belt knives with guards documented, or accepted as such, but they can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and likely with a finger or two left over if one demands hard documentation.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 04:51:25 AM by LRB »

Offline jrb

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 04:41:18 PM »
There's been literally hundreds of 18th century fixed blade and folding type knives found at just Fort Michilimackinac alone. In his book " Fort Michilimackinac 1715-1781", Lyle Stone has a section on knives, excavated under controlled conditions there and discusses and shows photos of several of the 512! he got to consider for this section of his book. This book was published 40 years ago, so i presume even more have been excavated there since?
They are of course all French or British made, and whether used as trade knives, table knives, weapons, who knows?
A lot of them have integral forged or welded on bolsters and aren't the simple, cheap "slab" style trade "scalpers" and "boucherons" that seem to be the common types on traders lists.
 Maybe??? these super common imported types are what an American rifleman may have used as a side knife during the latter 18th century?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 06:54:37 PM by jrb »

Offline jrb

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 09:20:14 PM »
There's that spectacular antler shed handle knife shown on the elderly Daniel Boone in the Chester Harding painting, but it was painted in the early 19th century. I wonder though, could Boone have had it before the painting? Or maybe it's just something the artist added?

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 10:53:36 PM »
There's that spectacular antler shed handle knife shown on the elderly Daniel Boone in the Chester Harding painting, but it was painted in the early 19th century. I wonder though, could Boone have had it before the painting? Or maybe it's just something the artist added?

Boone could have had such a knife, but Harding added it later.  The painting Harding made of Boone from life was only of his head and shoulders.  According to historian Ted Franklin Belue, "from this original oil portrait Harding made three copies: two busts and a full-length."

In the from life painting Boone is wearing a plain jacket, but in the painting that shows the antler-handled knife,  Boone is wearing a fur-trimmed and caped jacket.  Did Harding remember the fur-trimmed jacket and the knife or was he embellishing?  We can only guess.

-Ron
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 10:55:09 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline jrb

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 12:20:34 AM »
Thanks very much for the info on the painting, Ron.

jrb

Offline jrb

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 02:53:28 PM »
Some of the knives with the integral bolsters were made with an interesting type of construction. Some have a blade of steel, but the bolster with tang section are forged of iron, being welded together just in front of the bolster.
Full tang, partial tang, rat tail tangs, with 1 piece or 2 scale type handle material of bone,wood,pressed animal horn. Often a thin wrought iron end cap nailed or peened in place.



Offline LRB

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 03:13:41 PM »
  Those welded steel blades to iron tangs are typically English. The French often welded their iron bolsters to a steel blade and tang, both methods giving the impression of a one piece construction while saving time and steel.

Offline jrb

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 04:14:58 PM »
Hi LRB,
Hmmm, i had'nt read or seen of the French ones of all steel with just the bolster of iron welded onto a steel blade.
I've always assumed the use of the iron was to save steel.
I've read the Bonderoy stuff where he says some of the better French knives were all iron with a strip of steel inlaid and welded for an edge.
I've got several period bolstered blades from my area but they're in too bad condition to determine how they were made, i think.

This summer i plan to try to make some of these style blades.

Offline LRB

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 09:18:53 PM »
 This seems to a mix of what we both described. From the old "lanouville/France" web site.
"... Bondaroy noted that the sheath and table knives which were manufactured without a bolster were produced from a single bar of steel. In contrast, versions with a bolster were created by inserting a strip of steel into a slit in one edge of a bar of iron. When the bar was heated and worked, the steel portion was formed into the cutting edge, while the iron portion was fashioned into the back of the blade, the bolster, and either a slender tang or a flat handle section. The bolster supported the blade and also provided ornamentation. Due to the increased amount of labour that was required in their production, bolster knives were generally more expensive than plain versions.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 10:14:45 PM »
I have been interested in knowing more about original accouterments carried in the early days of the Rev War. One thing I would like to hear discussed is how was an original "rifleman" knife made? Did it normally have an iron guard similiar to this one on Old Dominion Forges site http://olddominionforge.com/Riflemansknife%200127101.jpg or one with poured pewter hilt similiar to these also on Old Dominion Forges site http://olddominionforge.com/IMG_5333.jpg
I believe I once heard that the early knives never had poured pewter bolsters.

No particular reason for linking to Old Dominion Forges Site other than both style of knife is shown. Both are great looking knives and I doubt many of the rifleman's knives were anywhere near as well made and nice looking as these are!
Dennis


To the best of my knowledge, there are only two (presumably) American-made knives that can be positively identified as 18th century, the famous Fort Ticonderoga knife found buried in an 1777 earthwork, and a knife found in Philadelphia with a sheath dated 1759. The Fort Ti knife had a handle of either antler or bone (the handle has mostly rotted away, but a few cells remain on the tang, apparently), while the Philadelphia knife had an antler-crown grip. Neither have a guard or any kind of bolster, and both have curved blades.

In addition there are a couple surviving knives that seem likely to me to be 18th century - a knife with a 6.25" crescent-shaped blade and a wooden pistol-grip handle with an iron ferrule illustrated by Minnis, page 28; a knife with a brass lion's-head grip and a banana-shaped blade blade 4" long, illustrated by Madison Grant in his knife book, page 108; another knife illustrated on the same page and supposedly found at Paoli with an antler grip and a banana-shaped blade 5" long; and knife cut down from a late 17th or early 18th century hanger, using a shortened sword-blade and the grip, no guard, illustrated in Mullin's Of Sorts for Provincials, page 103-4. All have curved blades, no guards, and only one has a ferrule. With the possible exception of the cut-down sword. All are pretty modest in length, as is the Philadelphia knife (I don't know the exact length of either the cut down hanger nor the Philadelphia knife, alas), leaving only the Fort Ti knife, at 9 and 1/2", as a genuine example of a big fighting knife, and it was not carried by a rifleman, I think. (No riflemen in the NY theater at the time, I believe.)

To be honest, I am strongly leaning towards the idea that we have grossly misunderstood the role of belt knives along the frontier, and that the whole idea of a "rifleman's knife" is a mistake made by ascribing to the 18th century the 19th century bowie knife mentality. Apart from mentions of "scalping knives," period accounts of frontiersmen don't seem to pay the same attention to their knives that they do to other aspects of their dress and arms, despite the fact that big knives would have been as odd to Eastern and European observers as rifles and hunting shirts, and there don't seem to be many of any fancy or high-quality knives being made or traded. I think that tomahawks (and some swords) were the hand-to-hand weapon of choice and accordingly had a cultural significance beyond the purely utilitarian - look at all the pipe hawks - whereas I think knives were treated more like the way we treat claw hammers today - useful and ubiquitous, but not something that one would decorate or show off.
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Offline iloco

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2014, 10:23:10 PM »
Elnathan, I like your thoughts on the Knife that a Frontiersman would use.
I have knives made by Hershel House, Glen Mock and others but I always look at them and wonder if that is what a Frontiersman would have carried.
 I think your explanation hit the Nail square on the head.
iloco

Offline LRB

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2014, 12:37:24 AM »
  Elnathan, I think you have summed it up pretty well. I Believe your thoughts on the matter are probably much more right than wrong based on what evidence we have available.  We just don't have enough info on 18th c. American knives, other than trade types, and of course these were imported.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 01:08:08 AM »
Very interesting and to me, informative discussion. I appreciate all who contributed.
Thanks
Dennis
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2014, 02:25:01 AM »
Dennis,

MAYBE we moderns confuse ourselves by trying to make a generalization or lump too much into the generic term “Rifleman’s Knife,” that people in that time period would not have realized or possibly even cared about.

 I personally believe a “Rifleman” would have chosen the knife that best suited the requirements for a knife he needed/used most often at a particular time period of his life or career and of course, what he could afford at the time.  IOW, is the belt knife primarily going to be used as a combat weapon in time of war OR is the primary use to skin and butcher animals?   

A Rifleman who mainly worked as a Scout or in time of  a campaign or war against either other European Settlers or Native Americans (in what we might call a military capacity), MAY have more likely carried a knife with a guard on it as the primary use of the knife would have been a combat weapon.  Of course, that includes the caveats that IF such a knife was available or he had time for someone to make up such a knife and of course if he could afford it.  However, a good or “best” combat knife then or now does not make a very good “all purpose” belt knife. 

A “Rifleman” who was a “Long Hunter” or market hunter or someone living on or close the frontier no doubt needed a belt knife that was better for skinning, butchering and any of a number of different all around cutting chores.  In such cases, using the knife for combat would have been rare.  Thus a blade thickness of 1/16’ to 3/32” is plenty thick and being a little thinner than what we might think of in a combat knife, is going to be easier to sharpen to a better edge for skinning and butchering.

I very much agree with the thinking that reason so many thousands of “trade” knives were imported on this continent were of some basic “styles” in the 18th century was because that is what people found were of the most preferred to be used by both European Settlers and Native Americans. 

One thing we don’t often discuss is how many of the 18th century trade knives and other belt knives had the bottom of the back of the blade well below the grip.  (The two pics you linked have blade styles like this.)   This blade style actually forms a rudimentary “guard” to keep ones fingers from slipping forward on the cutting edge, just as many modern “butcher knives’ STILL do.  With that blade style, you don’t really need a guard and a guard gets in the way when doing many cuts or slashes for skinning and butchering.  So with this blade style, it offers most of the protection of a guard against fingers slipping forward, but without the disadvantage of a guard getting in the way of making some cuts and of course it costs less than adding a separate guard.  (This style blade seems to have fell out of favor in the 19th century and especially later trade knives like Green River knives.)

Another thing that does not seem to be discussed a lot is the shape of the handle of trade knives.  Octagonal handles were common, though the side flats may have been larger than the angled flats.  However, there is also the diamond shaped grip that was common in the 18th century trade knives, but seem to have fell out of favor in the 19th century trade knives.  Personally, the only diamond shape handled knife I ever used was many years ago and it was an old family butcher knife.  That grips feels sort of weird the first few times it is used, but sort of grows on you, but it was/is not my personal choice for a shape of a grip.  Maybe this is part of the reason the diamond grip shape fell out of favor or maybe it was just that it required more labor to shape?  I don’t know.  Maybe folks who have diamond shaped grip trade knives can will chime in and give us their thoughts on using that grip shape?  Oh, here is a link showing that type of grip:
http://www.claysmithguns.com/trade_knife.jpg

I don’t know if others have noticed this, but the style or styles of what was commonly ;thought of as a “Rifleman’s Knife” in the 1970’s and 1980’s, SEEMS to have been more late 17th century style knives.  (I lost my files when my old computer crashed a little over a month ago and I’m trying to find excavated knife blades that were listed by period that seems to show this.  I’m searching for this information again.)

I am in NO way trying to tell people what style of trade knife they should by or use, but am suggesting for a more historically accurate 18th century trade knife, I suggest they think about what colony or area the Rifleman came from.  The reason I mention this is many hunters today are more used to a drop point knife that was much more common on French Trade knives than English Trade knives.  That then leads to the question of how available was a French Trade Knife in the colony or area the Rifleman came from, for historic accuracy.  Yes, I am aware that some English Trade Knives had drop points, but the archeological record shows most English trade knives had upswept backs or at most flat top/back knives.  I don’t think a drop point of “French Style” knife would have been seen nearly as often in the Southern Colonies as in the Northern Colonies where French Traders were more common.

Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2014, 03:08:58 AM »

I began writing my post above this morning and because I was running in and out all day long, just finished and posted it before I read Elnathan’s post that I agree with very much. 

I still have a 1970’s period “Rifleman’s Knife” that has a flat ground blade about 10” long and looks like it could have been made from a broken/cut down hanger (common infantry sword that fell out of favor here during and after the French and Indian War).  It was and is almost completely useless for anything OTHER than a combat knife and honestly, it is not a very good combat knife the way it was made.  It is a short tang knife that has an antler handle riveted to it.  I wanted to see how it would stand up to chopping and was surprised it came apart when chopping branches I believed it should have easily chopped through.  This knife would have come apart just as easily when used to block a tomahawk, war club or bayonet in a real fight.  This is part of the reason why I prefer a full tang or at least a good size “through tang” on a knife that MIGHT be used for personal combat. 

I don’t want to sound like an historic snob, but we made a HUGE number of mistakes when reenacting the Revolutionary War period back in the 70’s and early 80’s because we just did not know as much as the information that is commonly available today.   There is a common question in reenacting today that goes something like “Are you trying to reenact the historic period or are you trying to reenact the Bicentennial?”   Though perhaps that question is used too much in an arrogant or snobbish tone by some, it still is a good question. 

To me, it has been an enjoyable “learning curve” over the last four decades and today it is much easier to be historically accurate than it was in the 70’s. 

Gus

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2014, 03:41:24 AM »
I have read fiction and documented acounts of the longhunters, etc. being called the longknives so my question is how long were these longknives?

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2014, 04:08:19 AM »
I have read fiction and documented acounts of the longhunters, etc. being called the longknives so my question is how long were these longknives?

There is still much debate on the origin of term "Long Knives" and I'm not sure anyone can state with certainty what the origin truly was.  I, personally, am in the camp with those who believe it came from the fact that some European Settlers (dating as early as Jamestown) used swords, that Native Americans never came up with independently as they did not have the technology to make them.  So because some of the colonists used swords, European Settlers were "Long Knives" in the 17th century.   Of course, iron/steel knives had a tendency to be a bit longer than the flint knives that Native American's made, so that too may be at least part of the reason for the term "Long Knives." 

Most excavated trade knives seem to be around 7" blade length size, though up to 9" was not completely uncommon and some were a bit shorter - basically "butcher knife" length blades and people chose the size they liked best just as we do today.   

Gus

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2014, 05:00:05 AM »
I would suggest looking at Neumann"s  Swords and Blades of the American Revolution , published in 1973.It shows many dug and not dug samples.

Best to all

George

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifleman's knife
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2014, 06:22:53 AM »
I have that book by George Neumann as well as others he wrote and bought them at or very nearly the time they were first published.  George was very knowledgeable on the 18th century and was a Gentleman and often freely offered his advice and knowledge.  He used to set up at the Annual Baltimore Gun Show and many folks like me met him there.

However, no one is infallible and unfortunately, most of the antler handled knives George has in that book were Post Revolutionary War, if not early 19th century - as has been discovered from more recent investigations, archeology, etc.  Elnathan mentioned above the "Rifleman Type" knives that have been proven to have been of the 18th century period and they are few and far between.  

I do not write this to belittle Mr. Neumann, as some do today, but rather I believe George himself would have been excited to more accurately date some things in his books had the forensic tools and other information been available to him at the time.  

Gus
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 07:00:29 PM by Artificer »