Wedge or pin spacing

[whitebear]

Is there a rule of thumb, formula, or customary  manner to find the correct location for the wedges or pins in a longrifle stock?  In other words if I were going to use 4 pins or wedges on a 42" barrel what would be the correct way to figure the spacing.  I'm not asking if 4 pins is enough or too many just how to figure the spacing.

[B Shipman]

Pick your spot in the front and the back and space the other two evenly. BUT check the eventual placement of the ramrod pipes and make sure they don't interfere. 4 pins or wedges are necessary for a 44 in. or longer barrel or you get a slump in between. 3 will do for 42 in. or shorter.

[Mark Elliott]

That rule is good for PA rifles but not for VA rifles.   The backwoods VA folk believed that the first pin from the breech should be as far from the breech as possible for best accuracy.   Before the Revolution,  that first pin position was in front of the rear entry.    It gradually moved back with time.   I have never put the first pin any further back than the tang of the rear entry pipe.     You would need a barrel longer than 44" to have a need for more than three pins or wedges on a VA rifle.    Other than that,  the spacing of the remaining pins is as Bill stated.    You work them in where they will fit and as equally spaced as possible.   It seems that the original makers just placed them by eye.   There was no consistent spacing that I have ever seen.     

[Don Getz]

I usually place the rear pin about 7" from the breech end of the barrel, about 3" from the muzzle, and space the others evenly
between.   I use three pins on a 38" barrel, and four on a 42" or longer barrel..........Don

[Jim Kibler]

Mark,

How do you know the long first pin placement common on Virginia rifles occurred out of accuracy concerns?

Jim

[Don Stith]

I  thought it was to be sure it didn't interfere with the ramrod

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Don, that is so profound!  There is always the concern when drilling the rod hole that I am going to contact the bottom of the rear lug...ask me how I know this.

[Mark Elliott]

Mark,

How do you know the long first pin placement common on Virginia rifles occurred out of accuracy concerns?

Jim

Because that is what Wallace Gusler told me.  

[Telgan]

Excellent response Mark.

[Jim Kibler]

Wow.  Just when you think it can't get any worse here.

[whitebear]

Wow.  Just when you think it can't get any worse here.

Amen, Brother!

[Mark Elliott]

Wow.  Just when you think it can't get any worse here.

I am not exactly sure how to take that.      Wallace has done way more research on the subject than I will ever be able to do.   I don't believe everything he says, but I have no reason to doubt most of what he says on the subject. 

[Telgan]

I am afraid it may have been my comment that was found to be offensive. Oddly enough - I found Mark's comment to be humorous. Mine was intended as same. Just goes to show that written word does not always translate as intended. My appologies if my words offended any here. I always greatly enjoy both Mark and Jim's commentary on any subject.

[rich pierce]

I generally place them the way they were placed on the particular originals I am using for inspiration.  Seems likely that period gunsmiths placed them the way they were taught until they found a reason to change.  That's probably how little signatures that give us clues about an original's origin arose.  We seldom know the "why".

We can make reasonable hypotheses and when those are written in books, they become dogma and eventually are accepted as fact whether or not there is any period evidence supporting them.  Numerous examples include that the longrifle arose as an amalgam of the longrifle and the English trade gun (as if Germanic gunsmiths had never seen or made a fowling piece), that the Native American trade led to the development of the longrifle, that the longrifles became smaller in caliber to save lead and powder, that the Golden Age arose because there was a surplus of gunsmiths after the Revolutionary War competing for customers, etc.  All of these are reasonable and as far as I know, entirely unsupported by period accounts.  I'm unaware of period gunsmith notes or accounts or period writings giving explicit information on any of these things many accept as factual.  "Making smaller caliber rifles now because customers pay too dearly for lead and powder" is the type of period account that would be supportive in my eyes.  We will never find such statements, so are content to make reasonable guesses.  Codifying them is unnecessary and serves no purpose in my view.

[tallbear]

While it is true that placing the first pin forward of the entry pipe does show up quite a bit on Virginia guns as opposed to Pennsylvania guns I am not aware of any period documentation for it making a more accurate rifle. In talking to Wallace Gusler he did relate an anecdote from his youth that when attending local matches in Virginia that a large number of shooters removed the first pin on their rifles with the claim that it made them more accurate. Whether this is in any way related to the long pin spacing is an interesting question, but  I'm not even sure Wallace would say there is a definite correlation just that it was a curious coincidence.


Mitch Yates

[whitebear]

I am afraid it may have been my comment that was found to be offensive. Oddly enough - I found Mark's comment to be humorous. Mine was intended as same. Just goes to show that written word does not always translate as intended. My appologies if my words offended any here. I always greatly enjoy both Mark and Jim's commentary on any subject.

I took it as being humorous and tried to respond in kind as I'm sure others did also.

[Mark Elliott]

Actually,  I wasn't trying to be funny.    I had remembered, or perhaps misremembered,  being told that by Wallace.   So,  I gave him as my source.    If I misremembered then I do apologize.   

[Artificer]

Mark,

How do you know the long first pin placement common on Virginia rifles occurred out of accuracy concerns?

Jim

Because that is what Wallace Gusler told me.  

Mark,

WOW  !!  I almost fell out of my chair when I read you relating that Wallace Gusler mentioned how VA backwoodsmen believed on placing the first pin as far forward as possible for best accuracy!!  Gosh I would love to see the documentation on it because it makes sense from both real world applications and scientific principles. 

Allow me to say I have over four decades of experience with and profoundly know how some things gunsmiths and shooters believe as chiseled in stone fact turned out to only be partially true or not true at all after something is thoroughly and as scientifically tested as possible..  Such beliefs can span many decades and some only flair up for a few years then wither away when the knowledge of not only how but “WHY” something was done withers or is lost from memory or not passed down.  Some are only ‘flash in the pan’s” and are quickly discarded. 

I can see how the reason VA gunsmiths put the first pin further forward may have originally been so as not to interfere with the ramrod or entry thimble and THEN someone noticed it made the rifles shoot better.  Later on that knowledge may have withered on how it benefited accuracy and then the pins were placed closer to the breech. 

I thought about explaining the reasons why here, but I think that would be “stealing the thread,” so I’ll start a new thread on that.

In the meanwhile, allow me to say how excited and grateful I was to read you relate this information as it was the first time I ever heard of it.  You have casted a “pearl of great price” to this old dog and I truly appreciate it.

Gus

[Mark Elliott]

Gus,

Don't get too excited.   Mitch indicated that I might have misunderstood Wallace.   Also,  I originally said that I got this information from Wallace because he is the one who has to defend it if I remembered correctly what he said.   Given that Mitch remembers the context in which this was mentioned, and I do not,  I am inclined to trust Mitch's recollection rather than my own.   I tend to remember things by summarizing them before I tuck them away in long term memory.    That way,  I can fit more trivia in my brain.   However,  I know that I need to go back and verify my recollection if the matter is important.   My system works 80% of the time, but that leaves 20% of the time that I have something wrong.   I don't trust my memory 100%, so you shouldn't either.   

Mark

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't trust my memory. 

Tom

[Mark Elliott]

Like Reagan said, Trust but Verify.

[Artificer]

Mark,

Very well and thanks for the clarification.  I REALLY would like to know if there was documentation on putting the pin forward for better accuracy, as it would demonstrate they realized something that can be explained by both practical experience and mechanical principles. 

We learned things by trial and error and testing on National Match and Sniper guns that sometimes we could or could not explain and sometimes even the best Mechanical Engineers on firearms, like the ones at the H.P. White Laboratory, could not explain by other than educated conjecture, even though it  proved true by rigorous testing.  Some immensely tiny things made some HUGE differences in accuracy over the years. 

Thus something like this, if it was so documented, would get me excited while I'm sure it would mean little to nothing to others.

Gus

[B Shipman]

As I said, pick your spot. Good posts.

[tallbear]

Mark

There is no doubt that the old timers that Wallace was talking about from his youth believed that having the first pin(whether by long pin spacing or removing the first pin) made their rifles more accurate. And as one who believes that barrel harmonics play a large part of barrel accuracy I believe there is certainly that there is something to it.I just don't believe that that's the reason or am I aware of any evidence that that's why it was done historically.

Mitch Yates

[Don Getz]

Not that it would mean that much, but, do the judges at Dixon's have a category labeled " underlug placement" ?  How often
have you looked at a great gun said "wow, great gun, but look at the placement of the underlugs, they are wrong?"  I can recall looking at a gun that had the rear underlug in front of the entry pipe and thinking "why did they do that?"  I would find
it difficult to pick up one of Bill Shipman's super guns and tell him how good it was, except, for the underlugs.........Don