Hawken Rifle Questions.

[iloco]

I have a few questions about Hawkens I would like to get answered from you people who build Hawken rifles.

First exactly what is the difference between a Bridger Hawken and a Kit Carson Hawken.

 Were there two different styles of butt plates for a Hawken.  I had a friend say there was a slim or slender one and then a thicker one.  Is this correct.

 The flat trigger guard was it for the early hawkens.  I like it because my fingers lay flat to the guard when shooting.  What is the correct rifle or period for the flat guard.

Was the beaver tail cheek piece on later hawkens and the straight type on earlier models.

 I will proably have more questions.  This is a good start.

[heinz]

Iloco,  there is a long history to Hawken rifles and a definite change in the rifles as time progressed.  We have some real Hawken experts on the forum and I am sure they will respond.  But it is the weekend and responses can be slow so I thought I would kick this off for you then the experts will come out and correct me.
There were two Hawken brothers in the Rocky Mountain rifle trade, Jake and Sam. Their father Christian Hawken was a noted builder in the Maryland. (corrected)
I would recommend that you read two books on them, John Baird's "Hawken Rifles. the Mountinman's Choice"  and Charles E Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle, Its Place in History"  Both authors are biased and the truth is probably somewhere in-between.  John Baird was a friend and I like his view better. 
Jacob Hawken was at work in Saint Louis by 1818.  He worked in the Harpers Ferry armory  prior to that and may have been familiar with the Lewis and Clark rifles.  Samuel Hawken was in Saint Louis by 1824 coming by way of Hagerstown Maryland and Xenia Ohio, working in both of those spots.
Apparently Hawken rifles started out with hand forged iron hardware and over the years progressed to cast hardware.  Early Hawken rifles are like pre revolutionary iron monted southern guns, shrouded in mystery and all used up.  Like all rifles of the time the lines of buttstock became slimmer and the percussion lock came into use.  Rifles from the Hawken shop appear to have often been made to order with wide variation in patch boxes/cap boxes, barrel lengths and weights, etcetera.  Baird's book will give you good descriptions of the Modena rifle and some shots of the Kit Carson rifle.
Jacob Hawken rifles are slightly different from J &S Hawken rifles and Samuel Hawken rifles slightly different again. 

[rsells]

Iloco,
One of the fellows on the forum (Herb) will probably give you some good input.  He has pictures of the Bridger rifle that he took last fall,  I will give you my two cents worth.  I suggest that you look on Don Stith's web site.  Don has a Carson Hawken set of hardware that I have used to build a Carson rifle for myself.  I have yet to get it completed.  The Carson rifle has a narrow butt plate with the final and the back of the plate coming together in a square pointed corner.  The earlier butt plates had a radious in this area.  I think the Bridger butt plate is wider than the Carson but it does come together in a square pointed corner similar to the Carson.  If you look at Track's Carson and Bridger parts set, neither of the butt plates are 100% correct for the rifle.  Their Bridger butt plate is close, but has a radious where the final and butt portion of the place meet.  Track's butt plate used on their Carson parts kit is not correct.  You can file Tracks Bridger to get it very close to the original Bridger butt plate, but I would use Don Stith's hardware or kit if you are going to build a Carson Hawken.  Don's part sets are as good as you will find.  

The flat grip rail on the triggerguard is a characteristic usually found on earlier rifles, and the Tennessee type cheek piece is found on early full stock rifles.  I have seen original half stocked J&S Hawkens with the rounded cheek profile and the flat grip rail triggerguard.  I have not seen any S Hawken rifles out there with the flat grip rail triggerguard, but folks who are more expert than I on these types of rifles may have a different answer.  If you will send me your email address to rbpodge@twlakes, I will send you a photo of the butt of my Carson rifle and I have some photographs of the original Bridger butt as well so that you can make a comparison.  Be careful, once you get the Hawken bug, it is next to impossible to overcome.

If you will get on the Cody Museum web site, they have several Hawken rifles on display.  You can pull up photographs of these rifles showing different profiles of each rifle.  It is a good reference.  I don't have the web site info because of a computer problem, but they had John Johnston's Hawken on display when I was out there in October.  I have only seen photographs of the Bridger rifle, but the Johnston Hawken looks exactly like the photo's I have seen of the Bridger  Hawken.
                                                                                                    Roger Sells

[smylee grouch]

Hawken rifles had lots of variations and I was under the impresion that Christan Hawken was Jake and Sams dad but I have been wrong more than once.

[Don Stith]

Lots of differences of opinions and some of them are correct. The one critique I'll add at this point involves the trigger guards. The earlier guard has a fairly large bow and a perfect circle for the rear loop. The rail between the two is not flat to the wrist. You can see a picture of that guard on my J&S offerings. Track also has that guard ,the mold being made from my master. I don't know what they call it. I copied the pattern from a J&S that was documented sold in 1838. The flat to the wrist guard is later.
 Lots of variations in buttplates. Too many  to cover, and you will find exceptions to any rule you want to postulate

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

from the NRA Museum site: http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-galleries/the-prospering-new-republic/case-29-the-rifle-shop-and-the-plains-rifle/samuel-hawken-plains-rifle.aspx

The family's association with gunmaking began with brothers Christian and Nicholas Hawken, of Hagerstown, Maryland, who established themselves as makers of "Kentucky" rifles.  Christian's sons George, John, Jacob, Samuel, and William later followed in their father's footsteps.  Three of the brothers remained lifelong residents of the Hagerstown area, while Jacob and Samuel headed west.

[louieparker]

As Don says there are lots of variations .  Not only in butt plates but rifles. I have had in my shop two S Hawken rifles that were completely different than say the Bridger gun. These rifles had spur trigger guards, animal decorated boxes, silver cheek piece inlay, silver side plate, silver comb plate, silver barrel bands, ornate silver wedge inlays, toe plate with a built in silver lid cap box, and so on. Both of these rifles were big guns, 60 cal. or over. They had bar locks with the piece of metal attached to the barrel that sat down on the front of the lock, like some English guns. Both were completely engraved and by the same hand, One of these rifles is bigger and more decorated than the other. But both are decorated. You ask about cheek pieces. I have seen several full stock rifles and only one had a beaver tail cheek piece. The rest were like a Tenn. cheek piece. So from what I have seen, they most often had the straight bottom cheek piece. 

There are people who think that if a Hawken doesn't look like the Bridger gun it isn't correct.   I made a bench copy of the lesser decorated rifles described above .  I displayed it at the Denver gun show. A fellow came by and give it a looking over. As he started to leave he said " That's nice, but Hawken never make a gun like that." 

[iloco]

Thanks to all of you who have replyed to my questions.
 Lots of useful information from people who know what they are talking about.  I have enjoyed reading your answers to my questions.

[Dphariss]

A pictorial explanation of the Hawken.

Two local squirrel rifles, a heavy "Kentucky" match rifle and the rest are "mountain rifles".



These are J&S and S Hawken rifles. The center rifle , the "Petersen" rifle,likely dates to the early/mid-1830s.





Silver mounted from 1836 (dated)






Brass mounted


The Bridger rifle


The Johnson Hawken


A heavy large caliber full stock. Possible match rifle?


Every rifle here is a Hawken. Not one is the same as another though they share common traits for the most part. The Bridger and Johnson Hawken are similar being the more massive late rifles. The Petersen Hawken is much slimmer as some J&S rifles are.
These rifles were not made in a factory with machines to duplicate stocks. They were made in a gunshop dating from the early to mid 19th c. No two are identical, they all have variations in locks, breeches, barrel dimensions and shaping. Similar is about as close as they come.

Dan

[Dphariss]

The 1/2 stock rifles virtually all have a "beaver tail" type cheekpiece. I would say all but sure as heck someone has seen one that is different.
The FS rifles usually have a "Kentucky" type but some of the later ones have the same cheekpiece as the 1/2 stock rifles.

[Bob Roller]

As old Charlie Lawson used to say,there ain't one of them the same as the others.
Hand made items can look the same but closer looks will see they are not.

Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Dr. Shumway states in one of his books that Wolfgang Haga was also a brother to Christian and George Schoyer (sp) might have had some association also. Can anyone elaborate on that?

[galamb]

From what I have been able to find.

The Hachen brothers, Nicholas and Wolfgang emigrated from Switzerland in (possibly) the 1750's.

Nicholas settled in Hanover, PA, Wolfgang in Reading.

Nicholas (or possibly his sons) changed the Hachen name to Hawken and Wolfgang took on the surname Haga.

Nicholas had at least two sons that became gunsmiths - Nicholas (jr) and Christian.

Could find no record of Wolfgang having children that became gunsmiths but his daughter married Peter Gonter another noted gunsmith.

(a little disjointed here but should tie together).

George Shreyer (various spellings) began his apprenticeship under Nicholas Hachen in about 1753. Nicholas died in 1758 (Christian Hawken was age 2 at the time). Apparently George Shreyer finished his apprenticeship under Wolgang (Haga).

In 1760 Shreyer opens his own shop in Reading, but moves back to Hanover in 1775. In 1786 he takes probably his most famous/prolific apprentice, John Armstrong.

(back to the Hawken's).

Christian Hawken began his apprenticeship in 1770 (possibly under Wolfgang) and was considered qualified by 1777. Christian moves around a bit working in Hagerstown MD with his brother Nicholas briefly. After spending a year in North Carolina he returns to Hagerstown and sets up shop permanently in 1784.

Jacob was born in 1786, Samuel followed in 1792 (third and forth sons).

All the brothers that became gunsmiths probably apprenticed under their father Christian.

Jacob worked at Harpers ferry between 1808 and 1818 - first noted in Missouri in August of 1818 as partners in a shop with James Lakenan.

Samuel served with the Militia during the war of 1812 and then established his own business in his fathers old shop in 1815.

In 1816 Sam moved to Xenia, Ohio.  In 1821 his wife died and then his father died so he briefly returned to Hagerstown before heading to Missouri. (according to the 1820 industrial census, Sam built 21 rifles valued at $420 and made $300 of rifle repairs, during the business year, and employed 1 "hand" who was paid $20 a month)

Although Sam was in Missouri in 1822 he probably didn't partner with his brother Jake until 1825 when Jake's partner (Lakenan) died.

Jake died in 1849 and Sam retired in 1855 after a brief relocation to Colorado supposedly made his last rifle in 1861.

So Jake and Sam came from a good "bloodline".

Their father was Christian Hawken. Their Grandfather, Nicholas Hachen and their great Uncle was Wolfgang Haga.

[Jeger Justnes]

A little off topic perhaps: These Petersen Hawkens listed; would that be Frode Petersen, Christiania(=Oslo, Norway 1815-1903)? A few of his builds have a 'Hawkenesque' appearance but lacking the crescent buttcap.
Runar posted some information about him in this ALR thread.

Best regards, Tor

[rlm]

Galamb, while it has often been suggested, speculated, that Armstrong apprenticed to Schreyer, I am unaware of any documentation that allows this to be stated as fact.

[galamb]

I have put that synopsis together from various sources while seeking information on Christian Hawken, so I simply summarized what has been published elsewhere.

In reading many sources, certainly over 90% of the history contains words like "possibly or probably" since virtually no records have been found.

That is why I started my post "from what I have been able to find".

[Chuck Burrows]

A little off topic perhaps: These Petersen Hawkens listed; would that be Frode Petersen, Christiania(=Oslo, Norway 1815-1903)? A few of his builds have a 'Hawkenesque' appearance but lacking the crescent buttcap.
Runar posted some information about him in this ALR thread.

Best regards, Tor

Petersen refers to the collector/owner who owned it and not the maker - the rifle was made by J & S Hawken in the mid-1830's - it shares the same type lock, a shotgun lock with out bolster,  as the silver mounted J & S Hawken that is dated 1836.

[Herb]

iloco- The main difference is in the barrels.  Bridger's rifle has a barrel 33 1/4" long ahead of the snail.  It measures 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle, which is not a tapered barrel.  Carl Walker of the Green River Rifle Works who made copies of it said you could make that much difference with a file.  That is .050 slimming, half the thickness of a dime per side in 33 1/4 inches.  The Carson rifle I have not yet handled, I hope to do so in the spring, but I understand it has a straight 1" barrel a little over 31" long.  Track's parts for it are a 1" barrel, and a 1 1/8" for the Bridger.  The Bridger and Carson rifles are fraternal twins, nearly alike.  The butt plates are the same to my eye, and Track's BP-Hawk-JB-I is the nearest correct commercially available, once the inside corner is filed square.  I think this same one is correct for the Carson rifle, with square corner.  I used this on my Bridger copy, but in comparing my rifle to Bridger's in the Montana museum, I discovered the tang was longer on Jim's, 2.4" inside compared to 1.625 on Track's.  If I ever make another copy, I'll cut the tang off one butt plate and weld it on the other as an extension.  Here is my Bridger copy and Jim's rifle in the Montana State Historical Society Museum in Helena, MT.  Note the curl of the rear trigger guard loop.

The Bridger butt plate and cheek piece.  The toe plate is riveted to the butt plate.


The photo of the Bridger rifle was taken by my friend Dave Boender in 1975 when GRRW had the rifle for making copies.  I enlarged it to full size, based on a 4.85" long Bridger lock, but the original I measured at 5.0".  Track's trigger guard TG-Hawk-L-I is the correct one.  There is a difference in the rear loop, Track's tail is longer than Jim's.  I have since cut mine off to the white line, and it is a very close match.  The triggers have a different spacing, nothing to do about that.  My triggers are Ron Long's #TR-PA-20.


Here you can see the trigger spacing.

Track's entry pipe for the Bridger is wrong, they have RP-Hawk-E-7-I, but the correct one is RP-Hawk-TE-7-I, which they correctly use for their Carson rifle.  The Bridger rod pipes are 1/2" inside, including the entry pipe.  I drilled the cast RP-Hawk-TE-7-I out to .500" and made my ram rod 1/2" full length.

I bought Track's new Kit Carson's Hawken Rifle full scale plan drawing and it is a fantasy thing in my opinion.  The length of pull is a God-awful 14 5/8", whereas Carson's rifle is really about 13 1/2" (I have not personally measured it, but scaled it from photos).  The barrel is too long at 34.4" and the butt plate is not correct.  But they used to have a plan for the Bridger Hawken that was good, I don't see it in Catalog #18.  Bridger's rifle has a 13 1/4" length of pull, weighs 11 pounds 4 ounces, my copy has a GRRW 1 1/8" barrel 31" ahead of the snail (2 1/4" shorter than Jim's) and weighs 10 pounds 12 ounces.  And I can shoot it.  At Jim Goodman's New Years shoot (posted here under black powder shooting) I "killed" all 17 targets, which I personally had not seen done in 100 to 150 scores over 8 to a dozen trail walks there.

[rich pierce]

This thread is a great demonstration of the high level of knowledge and willingness to share found here.  Hard to imagine this happening anywhere else.  Nice work fellas!

[Jeger Justnes]

Thank you for that information, Chuck Burrows.
Enjoyable thread loaded with information, please excuse my ignorance :-)

Regards, Tor

[Don Stith]

The actual measurements on the Carson rifle are 1.129 at the breech and 1.065 at the muzzle. Length is 31 1/8" May not be much taper but it does help the overall look and balance.  Why settle for half a loaf.

[Herb]

Thanks for those measurements, Don.  Herb

[iloco]

What were the original calibers of the Bridger and Carson rifles.

[Herb]

The Bridger rifle is .52 caliber, I think.  Doc White had it at the GRRW and he shot it in the Fort Bridger Rendezvous match.  It had been shot before.  See The Buckskin Report for June, 1975 "The Day Old Gabe Smiled" by Robert Holter.  In March, 1966 a director of the Montana Historical Society had the Bridger rifle at a Kalispell gunshow.  He asked Holter and Bob Chapman to return it to the museum in Helena on their way through there.  They agreed to do so on the condition that "no one will complain if we crank a few shots through the Hawken" (They also returned an original 1873 Trapdoor Springfield).  The museum director, perhaps unbelieving, said "Sure, to ahead".  They got about 20 .535 balls from Les Bauska, rifle barrel maker, and some caps and patching.  They stopped at a gravel pit and popped about 10 caps to clear the nipple.  The first load was 50 grains of FFg and a patched ball.  'The ball went home with some difficulty..'  By the 12th shot the rifle was loading smoothly.  Their last shots were with 100 grains of FFg.  They cleaned the rifle thoroughly and returned it to the museum in Helena.  I'll call Carl Walker, who handled the rifle at GRRW, and ask him the caliber.  In about an hour.

[galamb]

Please do post it up.

I have info stating it was a 53 cal with a 36" barrel tapered from 1.125" at the breech to 1.00" at the muzzle, would like to keep my spec sheets accurate - never know when you will get the urge to build one