What would a horn look like in 1785-1790?

[Bull Shannon]

I'm trying to get ideas for a horn to go with my 1785ish outfit.  It would have been carried by a woodsman and sometimes trader in the South Carolina area.  Would a map horn be appropriate?  Carving, applied tip, etc.?

I don't have the skills or a place where I can make the horn myself, I am just getting an idea of what I would like the horn to look like and be appropriate for the time period.

William

[Carl Dumke]

William,
IMHO, a map horn is still relevant.  At this time, we are beginning to transition away from the golden age of horns and into more simple styles.  The plugs seem to become more domed and less artistry in the spout.  Tansel style horns with the fish-mouth spouts appear.  Applied/screw tips, while beginning around the golden age start to be more in style as well.  I hope this helps.

[Bull Shannon]

Thank you Carl, this helps a lot and gives me a starting point to begin searching for what I want. 

[Artificer]

William,
A lot of it has to do with your age in the Time Period and your social/financial status and somewhat the occupation.

If you are in say your 40’s or older, you may have preferred or still own an earlier style horn.  The more wealthy you are in the time period, the more likely your horn would have been the product of a professional Horner and therefore more fancy.   Even if you are not doing an impression of a wealthy person in the period and you are in your 40’s or more, chances are your horn would be fancier than someone in their late teens or early/mid 20’s. 

You mentioned being a “sometimes trader.”  Would that be mostly to European Settlers along the frontier or would that also include Native Americans? 

When I did a frontiersman/sometimes trader impression many years ago, it was slightly later than your time period in the early 19th century around Fort Wayne, IN..  I reasoned that though a fancy powder horn and other accoutrements would put on a “good show” to Native Americans, it ALSO might lead to them wanting such items for presents or trade OR even set me up for more theft than normal.  So I kept my accoutrements very plain.  Heck, to make the most profits, I figured one would want to sell the best stuff or at least use them as presents to help you save your hair and use the plainer stuff myself. 

Gus

[Bull Shannon]

I would portray my current age of 46 and trade would be with the native Americans of the surrounding regions. 

William,
A lot of it has to do with your age in the Time Period and your social/financial status and somewhat the occupation.

If you are in say your 40’s or older, you may have preferred or still own an earlier style horn.  The more wealthy you are in the time period, the more likely your horn would have been the product of a professional Horner and therefore more fancy.   Even if you are not doing an impression of a wealthy person in the period and you are in your 40’s or more, chances are your horn would be fancier than someone in their late teens or early/mid 20’s. 

You mentioned being a “sometimes trader.”  Would that be mostly to European Settlers along the frontier or would that also include Native Americans? 

When I did a frontiersman/sometimes trader impression many years ago, it was slightly later than your time period in the early 19th century around Fort Wayne, IN..  I reasoned that though a fancy powder horn and other accoutrements would put on a “good show” to Native Americans, it ALSO might lead to them wanting such items for presents or trade OR even set me up for more theft than normal.  So I kept my accoutrements very plain.  Heck, to make the most profits, I figured one would want to sell the best stuff or at least use them as presents to help you save your hair and use the plainer stuff myself. 

Gus

[James Rogers]

Dunno,
I dont know of any evidence of map horns being carried by woodsmen/trader types in SC during that period. There may some?
I would say a rather plain horn holding a pound or so of powder is a good safe choic e. Very possibly an import or at the least a mass produced for trade horn.

[Artificer]

William,

Well, you are still a young man!  Good for you!.

That gives you more leeway, as mentioned above, as you are mature enough to have something at least a little fancy even if you are not portraying a wealthy trader.  Still a plainer horn would also be correct, depending on your own preferences. 

Gus

[Mike Norin]

If you can find a book by Jim Dressler called The Engraved Powder Horn or another called Powder Horns and Their Architecture by Madison Grant they will have a lot of pictures to look at and have some dates for the time and place you are trying to be in . Hope this helps you ...... Mike

[gizamo]

Late in the 18th century for a golden age style horn. A plainer horn seems appropriate.  Not to say there are notable exceptions.

Giz

[Artificer]

Though these don’t help with a NC association, they do show “early period style” horns being made later into the early 19th century in New York. 

This horn looks much earlier than the 1807 date on it.  Of course it could be an earlier horn that was just dated later.
http://americanpowderhorns.com/?p=440

Another horn with the same date. 
http://americanpowderhorns.com/?p=422

I searched, but could not find what was going on in New York that was so important to date Powder horns with that 1807 date?   The Embargo Act?  The Abolition Act?   Robert Fulton’s steamship Clement going from New York to Albany with an average speed of 5 MPH? 
Gus

[Artificer]

Here is one that looks later than the 1775 date, though perhaps correct for the 1807 date?
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/77/1/AAF-526

Is this one generally what it should look like?
http://www.ambroseantiques.com/hornsflasks/seehorn.htm
Gus

[Mike Norin]

The Samuel Welsh 1807 horn looks like it might have been used by anybody of that time, and maybe a horn a little more plain would work too . I think a trader would have a quality horn and other items that would catch the eye of a lot of different folks .

[James Rogers]

The Samuel Welsh 1807 horn looks like it might have been used by anybody of that time, and maybe a horn a little more plain would work too . I think a trader would have a quality horn and other items that would catch the eye of a lot of different folks .

Hi Mike,
I like that horn as well.
I do think however that as a merchant trader to the indians, he would not keep a horn long if it was hands above what he was peddling to them ; )

[Mike Norin]

James you are probably right , I didn't think of the Indians , they might think that they were getting a lesser quality horn than what he might trade to the colonist . That might not be a good idea !......Mike

[mr. no gold]

Bill Guthmann conjectured that some map horns, and others may have been carved in 1876 for the Revolutionary War Centennial. He also commented that some of the Rev War horns may have been made in the early 1800s to buttress late pension and land claims on the federal government as sole, or supplementary evidence for proof of service in the conflict. He said that the pension commission would consider such items as many former soldiers had no other records. Can't vouch for these ideas; they were from personal commnunication with him. Bill did a lot of research on his horns and the ensuing book and papers, so there may be some validity. For what it is worth
Dick

[skillman]

I have heard this before. Maybe he was the source of the idea or maybe others have reached that conclusion.

Steve

[mr. no gold]

Bill may, or may not, have been the author of those concepts; our conversation on the subject took place at the KRA in 1992, so it has been awhile. Nothing I wanted to hear mind you, but horns do fit the advice of the old Latin warning 'caveat emptor.' I plead guilty to buying two grand carved horns for a lot of money, a long time ago, and found out that I had old horns with new carving.
To the orignial question, what does an old horn of that period look like. my take is that it is nearly impossible to tell without additonal evidence. Almost any common horn could be that old. As the rifles got fancier, some horn makers may have progressed in quality and design as well; think York, Berks, and Lancaster here, but in the early 1800s. Would like to hear from Alan Gutchess and Walter O'Connor here on this subject, but not sure we will. They have the answer, I am fairly certain.
Dick

[Majorjoel]

Very sorry to hear of your bad experience's with your old powder horn purchases Dick! I have come very close to making the same mistake a time or two as well. I always seek a horns "back ground" as to where it has been for as far back as I can get. Knowledgeable folks from this forum saved my bacon one time in particular! These days I steer clear of the fancy scrimmed stuff. The "plainer" pieces with a proven background are still fun to go after. 

[mr. no gold]

Thank you Joel. The horns I mention came out of England as do a lot of other really fine rifles and other pieces. Guess it was my bad luck to find the two that weren't correct. The dealer took one of them back, sort of, so it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Your guiding principles on horn buying are quite sound. We all need to adopt them.
Dick

[Majorjoel]

Glad to hear you were not soaked totally through Dick. I sure would not ever claim to be an expert on old powder horns! Some of the guys today can make them so well aged and correct looking that if I do stick my neck out (or wallet) on something without a sure history, I don't pay much more than what a good contemporary horn would go for.