Author Topic: Trying to learn more on powder horns  (Read 9066 times)

Offline Artificer

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Trying to learn more on powder horns
« on: January 27, 2014, 07:25:59 AM »
I posted this in another thread in the antique gun section in reply to a thread on the subject and got no responses, so I thought I would try again here.

I would very much be interested to see how much of this information is still considered accurate as the article is a bit aged.
Gus

I an NO expert on original powder horns.  Just found this link in which the author states reasons Riflemen’s horns were usually not scrimshanded, Including but not limited to:

1. Riflemen did not have the idle time to engrave their horns.

2.  Fear of reprisals against their families.  (I assume he means during the Revolution.)

3.   The Riflemens’ horns were scraped thinner to be translucent so the owner could visually check the amount of powder remaining in the horn.  Thus they were very concerned that engraving or scrimshanding the horn would seriously weaken the horn.

The Author also mentions filling horns in both civilian and military use and I found that interesting and don't believe I've ever seen that in print before.

PDF] EARLY AMERICAN ENGRAVED POWDER HORNS by Crosby ... americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp.../03/B012_Milliman.pdf

I realize this is a pretty old article and wondered how accurate the information may still be?
Gus

PS  My apology.  It seems I am not computer literate enough to post the PDF link so it will take one directly to the article.  The only way I’ve found to do it is cut and paste it to a search engine like google and get the PDF to activate there.    Perhaps someone else knows how to post it here as a link?
Gus 


Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 04:41:28 PM »
  Here is a link:

http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.hostguardian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B012_Milliman.pdf

  According to The American Society of Arms Collectors web site it was published in their bulletin in the Fall of 1965.
 

  Tim C.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 04:50:24 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2014, 05:49:56 PM »
One must be very careful of decorated powderhorns as a reference. They have been professionally faked since at LEAST the 1930s (documented by a letter found in a museum and noted in an issue of American Traditions). I strongly suspect this has been going on since the Centennial of the American Revolution when things like this first became collectable.

I was discussing this with a friend of mine at our Guild Fair, he is far more experienced than I, and he stated he would not pay antique prices for any horn due to the number of fakes in circulation.
So unless its been in a collection for 140 years and/or has iron clad documentation, I would be skeptical.

Why aren't horns decorated like rifles or furniture? They are not rifles or furniture, they are powder horns.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 06:17:08 PM »
Great Article.  Thanks Tim.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 06:42:09 PM »
One must be very careful of decorated powderhorns as a reference. They have been professionally faked since at LEAST the 1930s (documented by a letter found in a museum and noted in an issue of American Traditions). I strongly suspect this has been going on since the Centennial of the American Revolution when things like this first became collectable.

I was discussing this with a friend of mine at our Guild Fair, he is far more experienced than I, and he stated he would not pay antique prices for any horn due to the number of fakes in circulation.
So unless its been in a collection for 140 years and/or has iron clad documentation, I would be skeptical.


Dan

  Well said Dan, I agree with you.

   Tim C.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 07:51:17 PM »
Tim C,
Thank you for posting a "Quick Link" or whatever it is called, so folks can easily get to it, including me.  

Dan,
Good point about so many fakes being on the market and dating back a long ways even to the Centennial.  I wonder that 50 or 100 years from now that some horns that were never intended to be fakes, but just good copies of original horns or styles, will add to the confusion?  I'm not suggesting people should not do it, though.

To everyone,

Some things about this article especially caught my attention.  

I remember from the early 70's that it was commonly accepted that Period Riflemen scraped their horns thin enough to be translucent so as to easily be able to see how much powder was left when held up to the light.  However, not many people were doing that at Friendship or other Primitive Events, even then.  Now that the modern day Horner's Guild and other groups have been active for a while, I wonder if that information was accurate and/or if original horns have been found showing this feature?

I have also wondered how in an age when maybe only 1/3 of the populace could read and write, why so many original horns had the owners names on them?  The author addresses that to some degree by noting that horns belonging to or were issued to Americans during war time, were sometimes (if not usually) ordered to have the owners’ names inscribed on them so they could be easily returned to the persons issued them after the horns were filled.  He pointed out that some of the men who could read and write and could do the work, scrimshanded the names for those who could not read and write.  

It always made sense to me that when the Militia (including Riflemen) were called up for a campaign or raiding party, they would not always have enough powder in their horns or run through it and would need the horns refilled.  This suggests to me that at least on military campaign, they would not have attached their horns to their pouch or maybe taken off the horns attached to their pouch and slung them from a cord while serving on such campaigns?  

This leads to the question of was it more common to have the horn slung separately from the pouch or attached to the pouch.   Unfortunately, there are so few original hunting pouches from the 18th century, we can’t tell by them.  There are not many good period drawings or paintings of Riflemen and on most we really can’t tell if the horn was slung separately.  I realize that people would have hung their horn whatever way they wished in civilian life and wondered what the pro’s and con’s were of each way of carrying their horns?   Having the horn attached to the pouch may have been the preferred way for a frontiersman to carry the horn in case of when surprised or something going on when he slept and thus made it easier to gather his gear in a hurry?  However, in hostile territory, they may have slept with their pouch and horn on their body?

Something else I’ve wondered about is are there examples of  horns extant or documentation that shows what style of horns were made by professional Horners and sold as common horns “to the trade” in different time periods?  I’m wondering if the folks in the Modern Horner’s Guild or groups interested in Powder Horns have been able to identify or describe such horns where that information was not available 40 or 30 years ago?  

Any information would be very much appreciated.
Gus
  

 

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 04:01:35 AM »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 08:09:16 AM »
Nate,

Thanks for the tip.  I don't know much at all about screw tip horns.  When did they begin to be made and how common were they?

Oh on the subject of books, this weekend's Gun Show in Richmond, VA is the ONE show per year where a book dealer comes to this area with a wealth of books on all manner of 18th century guns and gear.  I buy as many books as possible at this show because I can preview them and see if the book is what I need or want.

Would you and others recommend what may be the best general books on the types of horns in different periods and/or especially 18th century horns?  I would very much appreciate it.

Gus

Offline Mark Tyler

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 09:46:32 PM »
Here are the books I recommend (not in order):

1. Pennsylvania “Horns of the Trade” Screw-tip Powder Horns and Their Architecture by DeCamp
2. The Engraved Powder Horn: Folk Art of Early America by Dresslar
3. American Engraved Powder Horns of the Golden Age: 1755-83 by DuMont
4. Powder Horns and Their Architecture by Grant
5. Powder Horns: Documents of History by Grinslade
6. Drums Abeating, Trumpets Sounding: Artistically Carved Powder Horns in the Provincial Manner by Guthman
7. Engraved Powder Horns by Swayze

A fairly complete bibliography of powder horn reference material can be found here: http://www.hornguild.org/bibliography/

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 09:57:22 PM »
Gus,  My wife is always saying  "I hate when you go out in the woods alone, what if something happens
to you?"  I am guessing this is the reason a guy put his name on his horn and in some cases the county
they were from.  So you could be brought back to your loved ones...in case something happens to you.
It was the drivers license of the day?  Just thinking out loud.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Mark Tyler

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 10:03:12 PM »
According to this, identifying markings were required in the F&I War.

http://www.gregorylefever.com/pdfs/PowderHorn.pdf


Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2014, 01:06:28 AM »
Mark,

Thank you very much for providing that list of suggested books.  I'll take that list with me to the gun show
Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 01:18:27 AM »
Gus,  My wife is always saying  "I hate when you go out in the woods alone, what if something happens
to you?"  I am guessing this is the reason a guy put his name on his horn and in some cases the county
they were from.  So you could be brought back to your loved ones...in case something happens to you.
It was the drivers license of the day?  Just thinking out loud.

That certainly could have been a reason some folks did it, but I'm not sure how widespread that was in the period as I don't know what percentage of frontiersmen were literate?  If the general populace was only about 1/3 literate, I imagine frontiersmen were less than that? 

Of course, having one's name on his powderhorn would also provide the benefit of being able to identify his body in 18th century Warfare, much as Modern "Dog Tags" still do.  Identity discs or tags were almost unknown until the mid part of the UnCivil War.  In the early battles of that war, men on both sides would write their names on a scrap of paper and pin it to their coat just before the battle,  for that reason.     

Gus

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 05:43:02 AM »
If the general populace was only about 1/3 literate, I imagine frontiersmen were less than that? 



I suspect  that they were at par or even a bit above. Assuming that the 1/3 literacy rate is accurate (where does that come from?), slaves would have made up a pretty fair chunk of the illiterate part of the population.
I have also been re-reading Seedtime on the Cumberland, and in addition to a couple mentions of books found in inventories of various kinds (you could buy books in Tennessee as early as 1784!), they had a school going in 1781 at French Licks, when the white settlers were barely hanging on in the face of tremendous pressure from the Cherokee and Creeks. I also recall her mentioning one frontiersman going to school as an adult and sitting with the children. I imagine that quite a few frontiersmen could at least write their names and sound out other folks' names, even if they didn't read much else otherwise.

I don't think that the longhunters or early settlers into the Tennessee-Kentucky were as desperately poor as commonly pictured - they strike me more as middle class entrepreneur types in many ways - so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they were interested in acquiring some basic book-larnin'.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 09:24:50 AM »
The 1/3 literacy rate comes from various modern sources talking about the literacy rate in the 18th century.  So it may or may not be accurate or only a generalization and if they counted in slaves, who by many colonial laws were not allowed to be educated, that would mean the European Settlers had a higher literacy rate as you suggested.  Of course, some of the European Settler cultures put more emphasis on literacy, such as the Quakers, Germans and Scots. 




Offline Elnathan

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 06:11:55 PM »
New England also put a very high premium on literacy - IIRC, it probably had the highest literacy rate of any place in the world at the time at over 90%.

New England was also where most of the engraved horns came from, I believe. There might be a connection.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 06:25:50 PM »
Literacy is another thing that separates humanity from other life forms.
A person that won't read is no better off than one who can't.

Bob Roller

Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 05:43:22 PM »
According to this article, it is believed that American Screw tipped powder horns date to Philadelphia as early as 1759.  I had no idea they were that early.

http://www.hornguild.org/category/articles-from-the-archives/
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:02:01 PM by Artificer »

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 07:46:36 PM »
According to this article, it is believed that American Screw tipped powder horns date to Philadelphia as early as 1759.  I had no idea they were that early.

http://www.hornguild.org/category/articles-from-the-archives/

 I must be missing something; where does it date Screw Tips to 1759? I see the reference to Powder Horns being made in Philadelphia in 1759 but no mention of Screw Tips. Not saying they weren't, I have heard a date of 1750, I am always looking for good reference material on them.

   Tim C.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 07:55:06 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 08:02:20 PM »
Ditto Tim C.
I don't think there has been any solid evidence to substantiate date theories. Screw topped items including powder containers of horn are certainly much older than that date so the posibility is there of course.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Trying to learn more on powder horns
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 08:18:27 PM »
Here is the text I was referring to:

"At least three horners, located half a block from the wharfs of Philadelphia in Strawberry Alley, advertised “the finest powder horns” for sale during the French and Indian War.  As early as 1759, one horner named Christopher Anger advertised “The finest American Made powder horns, combs, spoons, etc. at the sign of The Golden Powder Horn and Comb.”We believe the screw-tip powder horn originates in one of these shops."

Now re-reading that quote still leaves a question in my mind as what the author is trying to say about the earliest time period for a screw tip?

Gus
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:19:15 PM by Artificer »