Chambers vs Caywood

[northwoodsdave]

I'd like to build myself a flintlock smoothbore fowler and have been looking at many different kits.  I've narrowed it down to Caywood and Chambers, both of whom have enthusiastic backers.

I really like the styling of the Caywood "Wilson" trade rifle.  However, I also like the Pennsylvania Fowler offered by Chambers.  I'd want a twenty guage, and I would use it for both ball and shot.

Has anyone had experience with these kits or similar ones?   

Thanks

David L

[tg]

Both are qulity guns the offerings from Caywood fall short in the PC/HC area with the short barrels and small locks, if that is not a problem for a person then they would be a pretty good choice, they come without a liner which I would like to see more of on the types of guns that did not use them. I would go with a Walnut stock if getting a Caywood gun. I don't know how they compare for ease of assembly.

[David Rase]

I love the Chambers PA fowler.  If I was not a "plank" builder I would own one in a heartbeat.
DMR 

[voyageur1688]

 I havent seen the Caywoods but have a chambers and love it. Still not done with it as I am doing it all the old way without any power tools and in my spare time this winter.  Chambers  is a very personable guy as is whoever answers the phone at their business. I had called them with questions about my kit and got great help from them, then I had posted some other questions here and lo and behold, who was one of the responders? None other than Mr. Jim Chambers himself. He is a good guy from what I have seen and the quality of his kits are fantastic.
   For me, I wold go with the Chambers if nothing else than to know that while the kits are equal in quality The Chambers would be dealing with someone who is sincere and seems ike a truly good person.
 Todd

[elk killer]

 Barbie is wonderful to work with

[JCKelly]

Bought a finished French Type D, brass hardware, jug choked 20 gage from Caywood in November. Haven't been able to shoot it yet but impressed by fit & finish. Lock sparks beautifully.
Can't comment on authenticity, 41-1/2" barrel.
I found Dan Caywood quite personable. Well, maybe I can't tell if someone has an attitude or is arrogant, as I have been described in such terms. I generally take it as a complement.
I like the Caywood for shooting as he uses actual Gun Barrel quality 1137 modified for the barrels, says he buys his blanks from someone who supplies to modern shotgun makers. When all is said & done, what GBQ means, hopefully, is that the mill has taken care specifically to avoid any seams or cracks in the bar, and that each bar has been inspected against seams. I have been involved in getting a definition of GBQ 416 at my former employer, for a US rifle manufacturer. Any steel, stainless or expensive nickel alloy has some small percentage of bar with some defect in it. "Small percentage" is no comfort to those on the wrong end of statistics.
Am slowly putting together a Caywood pistol kit bought from Northern Rifleman. Again can't comment on how it compares with others because I've not touched a file or chisel for decades, when I did I made from the plank. Kit seems fine to me, though. Lock sparks well, looks well machined & finished inside.
I do not know what Chambers uses for barrels, maybe the same thing. Or, maybe just screw machine stock, 12L14, as it machines so well. I personally don't care to wrap my digits around a tube of such metal. Sorry guys, I'm a metallurgist with some successful experience as expert witness in a couple cases where the shooter got crippled, not by his own fault.

[Collector]

Installing a vent liner in a Caywood product VOIDS ANY WARRANTY.  Just thoight that should be put on the table, for consideration.
I'm not a metallurgist, just a lowly semi-retired oil/bank/law/business/this-old-house guy and I will ONLY use the barrels produced by a Jim Chambers supplier, my preference being Getz (I own two.)  Referencing a code or standard and then qualifing it with the word "hopefully," is an attorneys' living nightmare, e.g. "HOPEFULLY, those twelve people sitting over there weren't paying any attention, just now, when you used the word HOPEFULLY." 
I'm pretty sure, that there are plenty of posts on the topics of Jim Chambers Kits, Getz Barrels, Rice Barrels, etc. that with a little effort, can be extracted from the Archives section of ALR, sufficient to answer almost any question as to their quality, in either kit form or as individual products. 
I remain, just a quiet man among you,
G.Hansen   

[Nate McKenzie]

I've built and owned both.  I'll take the Chambers any day. The Caywood lock was real fussy about flints. They had to be perfectly sharp- 8-10 shots per edge. The Chambers locks seemed to go forever.

[axelp]

I own a Chambers PA fowler and its my "go-to" gun. It has never let me down when out for pheasants. squirrels or target shooting. One time when out casual clay shooting with friends who shoot modern shotguns, I hit 6 of 6 clays in a row---some of these hits were pretty far out past 30 yards, as the modern shooter missed and I was backing him up... I LOVE my PA fowler... And my builder friend who built it for me RAVED about how nice and smoothly it came together.

It is very well balanced and just feels right to carry

I know Caywood makes a really nice gun too, but my preference is Jim Chambers.

[Marty]

I bought a semi finished Caywood Wilson a few years back. It was very easy to finish the rifle, you could probably do it in a couple days with very little experience. I have never had any problem with the lock and the coned vent hole seems to be the ticket. I have shot several hundred shots out of it in all kinds of weather and had no issues with ignition. If you are having problems with your lock call Kiwi at Caywoods and ask him about a solution. He owns the lock company and is one of the finest people i know. I know people who are Danny fans and those that are not. He has never failed to shoot strait with me. Although i have never purchased one of Mr. Chambers kits he is a fine man and no dought would do you right on any deals. Enjoy your build.

P.S. be warned this hobby is more expensive and more addictive that the worst drug habit, but it sure is fun!

[ChipK]

A few years ago a friend of mine had a rifle built with a Caywood lock.  It had trouble with the angle of the cock and simply ate flints - about 3 strikes and the flint was gone.  Numerous gunmakers tried to get the lock to work including several of the premier makers posting on this forum.

A long story made short was that Caywood was contacted and admitted that they had ran a batch of cocks that had poor geometry.  They would not make it right by replacing the cock or lock, rather they left an unserviceable lock out in the hand of the public and a very poor story of customer service floating around.

The dealings I have had with both Barbie and Jim have been nothing short of spectacular.  They stand behind their work and offer continual service to the gunmaking community.  They support the NMLRA and our troops with discounts and offers.  I have a Chambers rifle that I love. 

All things being equal Barbie and Jim would get my hard earned dollars.

[Ezra]

The Chambers kit and the Chambers family Jim, Karen & Barbie, cannot be beat.  Great kits, great folks.  I have had the pleasure of visiting their home as well as taking the kit making class from Jim at Conner Prairie.  The world needs more folks like the Chambers. 

Now, if Jim would only make a traditional German Jaeger kit.  Hint, hint.


Ez

[bob in the woods]

I have a question, re the Caywood.....do the barrels come with a "black powder only" stamp??
Seems to me that I heard that before, but can't say for certain.

[Randy Hedden]

I have known Jim Chambers for many years and have used his locks. Jim is pleasant to deal with and I count him as a friend I have known Danny Caywood for many years and have used some of his locks. Danny and I don't agree on everything, but I have been offered supper and drinks by Danny anytime he was set up at Friendship. Mike Rowe, (Kiwi) is an AMM brother of mine, a good friend. and I have spent some great times out on the ground with Kiwi.

If I had something derogatory to say about any of these three men, I certainly wouldn't say it on a message board. This is not appropriate and not what this board needs. Talking about the products of Chambers and Caywood is one thing, but talking about the men themselves is something else and is uncalled for.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com.

[J Shingler]

The Caywoods that I have been around does have stamping on the barrels. One other note is the historical correctness of a maple English gun with that Fat ram Rod. Makes the whole forarm out of proportion. At least in my opinion. I know there are a lot of originals out there that I have not seen, but the originals I have seen have much thinner ram rods than that 7/16 thing they use. As for customer service and attitude Jim wins hands down. As for where did I put my money, I own the Chambers. Since the first year he came out with the fowler. 1989 - 1990 ?? 
Jeff Shingler

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I can't speak from experience to the kits; but, I have rifle with a Chambers roundfaced English lock and a fowler with a Caywood Wilson Trade lock. Both are comparable and spark well and reliably. Both good products.  Aesthetically I like the pan on the Chambers as the fence is designed to line up with the face of the breech, while the Wilson comes up straighter about 1/4" in front of the breech....unless you want to have to drill a cone in the front of  your breachplug.

[G-Man]

You can't go wrong with the Chambers.  That being said, I also built a Caywood Wilson a few years back for my dad and it is fine.  The lock is superb (I think that is one of their better locks), and the iginition is quick, even without the liner.  It was an easy build.

The two things I would prefer differently on it, though are (1) the large ramrod/ forearm issue, as Jeff pointed out - hard to get the forend looking right and (2) the pull is too long (over 14 inches) and you can't really shorten it because of the buttplate finial shape.  The extra length (compared to originals) is in the wrist and it throws the architecture off a bit as well as being too long for most people to shoot comfortably, in my opinion. But you can acheive a really nice look if you take a lot of wood off and shape it carefully.

Guy

[northwoodsdave]

Thanks for all the feedback.  The last post really capped it for me.  Though six feet tall, I was trained on much older guns and am accustomed to a relatively short trigger pull.  I also like a slender sillouhette, so the large forearm issue would be a problem.

I've decided I will definately go with the Chambers.  But at the same time, I want eventually to build a Fusil style gun. I may just gather parts from different sources and go that way.

I am also interested in Caywoods more original coned vent.  I have some old 'junk' barrels I bought specifically to experiment with, so may work on getting a good vent coning system going.  If it wears out (and, of course, it will eventually) then I can just go with a vent liner.

So not only am I decided on what kit to build, I'm already planning another project!  Does this ever end?   

David L

[bob in the woods]

So, I take it from the one post, that the Caywood barrels are stamped "Black Powder Only " ?
If so, then that destroys all possibility of using one in re enactments for me. Might as well carry an Italian "Hawken"!!!

[northwoodsdave]

I think the Black Powder Only may be a legal requirement.  Even if it's not, it's still a good idea for a gunmaker to cover themselves, in case some idiot puts in a load of smokeless.

I'm afraid the unmarked barrel (I hate the "Read instruction booklet before firing" stuff!) is as much a part of the past as the kind of guns we tend to shoot.

David L

[Mike Brooks]

I think the Black Powder Only may be a legal requirement.  Even if it's not, it's still a good idea for a gunmaker to cover themselves, in case some idiot puts in a load of smokeless.

I'm afraid the unmarked barrel (I hate the "Read instruction booklet before firing" stuff!) is as much a part of the past as the kind of guns we tend to shoot.

David L

Odd......I'll bet not one person on this board stamps anything like "For Black Powder only" on their barrels.  I know I don't. The people that by my guns are smart enough to know better.

[bob in the woods]

The day I see a gun made by Eric Kettenburg, with "Blackpowder Only " stamped on the barrel; is the day I give up..'cause it means the nut cases have won. Maybe I'll turn to making hand crafted coffins or something.

[Robert Wolfe]

Bob,

But then you'll probably have to mark your coffin's "Deceased Only".

[Ezra]

Bob,

But then you'll probably have to mark your coffin's "Deceased Only".

Bwwwaaahahahaha   


Ez

[TPH]

Bob,

But then you'll probably have to mark your coffin's "Deceased Only".

Oh man, that's priceless, made my day!