Author Topic: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please  (Read 15621 times)

bedbugbilly

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I've built rifles in the past (years ago) but they were full stock.  I'm in AZ for a few months - itchy to do something so started on a half-stock flint 40 caliber.  I'm very limited on tools so this will truly  be pretty much "made by hand".  I have a router, table saw, cheap small drill press and that's it for power.  My cordless hand drill has "bit the dust" so will be adding one as I need it to drill the ramrod hole.  This is not a "historically correct" half-stock.  It will be a "shooter" though - just using up some parts I've had kicking around.

Soi hère are the basics - curly maple half stock blank.  13/16 X 36"
 .40 cal. Green Mountain straight barrel - small Siler flint-lock - earlier style brass butt-plate (wider) and trigger-guard - haven't decided on triggers yet - I have single and double set.

I finished inletting the barrel and flared tang today.  So far .  all is going well.  Now I'm ready to put a lug on the underside of the barrel for pinning to the stock - once done, will drill pin hole and then drill the ramrod hole.  I will be using a under-rib (it is 24" in length).  I plan on soldering the under-rib to the barrel.  Now for my questions . . .

I have about 17" or so of fore stock at this time (length of barrel inlet in blank).  I will be pouring a pewter nose cap for this one.  The under-rib will allow me to go as short as 12" on the forearm . . . what should the fore-arm length be?  i.e. - since the barrel is 36" long - should I make the forearm 12" (+ or - a fraction) to give a 1/3 and 2/3 ratio?  i.e. 12" forearm and 24" bare barrel with under-rib?  Or, should it be longer?  Is there a set ratio?

Also, before putting the under lug on the bottom of the barrel for pinnin to the stock, where should this be located?  1/2 of the distance of the barrel channel? i.e. if barrel channel is 12" - should it be set for 6" from the tip of the finished forearm?  Or . . should it be centered between the front edge of the lock moulding (surround) and the end of the nose cap - which would place it closer to the nose cap than to the breech?

I don't know if there is any "set rule" for these things on half stocks?  I will probably be pouring pewter escutcheon plates around the barrel pin as well so that when finished, they will look like inlays.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 01:56:35 AM by Ky-Flinter »

rhbrink

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 02:37:33 AM »
I hope that you get some really good answers for your questions. I am also getting ready to build a flintlock half stock. This will be 40 cal target rifle but I would like it to at least look something like a historically correct late flinter on a half stock. I suppose that there were some made just don't see much reference to them maybe they were too much of a working mans rifle to be of note?

galamb

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 03:58:21 AM »
If you look at commercially available half stock blanks the barrel channels are often in the 12-15" range.

I have always tried to make them extend to the balance point of the rifle. Normally you would grip right behind the nose cap, and that's where I want the rifle to balance.

So that will change from rifle to rifle - no patchbox, will balance a little further forward than if you have one (add in heavy/light butt plate etc).

Because of that, I leave the position of the nose cap "open" as long as possible - do every bit of shaping I can before selecting it's final location (even if that means I put a couple elastic bands to hold the rib to try and figure the balance).

While this is a full stock, if it was a half stock I would place the nose cap about an inch forward of the balance point


I've always matched the pin or key placement according to whatever rifle inspired the build. I have seen Ohio's where the key is just a hair behind the nose cap and a couple of Hawken squirrel rifles where the key was placed about 2/3's of the distance between the breech and the nose cap (perhaps each builder had their own "system")

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 05:00:03 AM »
When I built rifles I always used an old-fashioned brace to bore the ramrod hole. With an electric drill I feared it would be too easy for the bit to wander off somewhere. Doesn't really take all that much time by hand.

I've long had a yen for a 1/2 stock flint rifle like the two shown in The Kentucky Rifle, Capt John Dillen, Plate 7 No.s 1 & 2 from the Laidacker collection.

Commercially available under rib these days is heavy stuff, milled from bar. Were you able to find a source for the light weight sheet iron rib as used on old rifles?

g rummell

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2014, 05:09:31 AM »
Here's one I've started for a client that wanted a halfstock Vincent Ohio rifle in flint. Colrain 36" 7/8 barrel in 50 caliber. Modified small Siler and Davis double set triggers. 3 3/4" drop, 13 1/2" TP, 12" from breech to the entry thimble. The barrel pin is 9 1/2" from the breech.








« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 05:54:38 AM by G.Rummell »

d-a

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2014, 06:13:40 AM »

Commercially available under rib these days is heavy stuff, milled from bar. Were you able to find a source for the light weight sheet iron rib as used on old rifles?

Muzzleloader builders supply has a hollow under rib available.  Product number 16618

d-a

oldfox

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2014, 03:43:33 PM »
Here's one I've started for a client that wanted a halfstock Vincent Ohio rifle in flint. Colrain 36" 7/8 barrel in 50 caliber. Modified small Siler and Davis double set triggers. 3 3/4" drop, 13 1/2" TP, 12" from breech to the entry thimble. The barrel pin is 9 1/2" from the breech.









Impressive work!  This is the rifle that I am considering as my first build.  Still unsure whether I want a flint or percussion.  What brand of lock are you using on this one?  Any help would be appreciated..

g rummell

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2014, 04:08:31 PM »

Impressive work!  This is the rifle that I am considering as my first build.  Still unsure whether I want a flint or percussion.  What brand of lock are you using on this one?  Any help would be appreciated..


Olfox, it's a modified Chambers Small Siler.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 04:09:45 PM by G.Rummell »

oldfox

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2014, 04:13:00 PM »
Thank you sir

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2014, 08:10:43 PM »
Mr. Rummel...nice start to your rifle.  It's great to see someone else who gets by with a swivel base machinist's vise.  That's all I have and need.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

rhbrink

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2014, 08:22:42 PM »
I really like the looks of the Vincent style half stock but wonder if that pointy buttplate was a later percussion development. Did they make any half stock flint locks? If they did maybe the buttplate might have been a little less radical. Guess what I'm saying is that if I were to build one that pointy thing would have to go it almost looks dangerous to me!

RB

galamb

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2014, 09:28:43 PM »
There were two Vincent's, father and son.

John was born in 1809 and first apprenticed as a cabinet maker and later became a farmer. He really didn't start building rifles until he was in his later 30's (age 38 by one account), which would potentially put his first rifle somewhere in the late 1840's.

John was primarily a farmer, his cabinet work was secondary with rifle building taking third place behind the other endeavors.

John Caleb was born in 1841. He also trained as a cabinet maker. His early rifles would have dated to at least the mid/late 1850's at best.

So both were building (perhaps more as a secondary source of income) during the cap lock era. Although Caleb left his father's shop to more actively pursue gunsmithing initially setting up a shop in Vincent Station in the back of a grocery store owned by his uncle. It has been estimated, based on shop records, that he probably didn't produce more than 15 rifles in any given year.

Earlier journal entries from his fathers shop show that 15 rifles were built in 1848, with only 3 and 2 in the following two years, and between 1860 and 1863 a total of 15 rifles were made - so definitely not exactly "prolific". (as a side note, only one pistol was listed as being produced between 1848 and 1863).

There is a couple of full-stock "flint" Vincent's out there that have been displayed/documented but I have never personally seen a flint half-stock (perhaps the AOLRC could be of assistance with that).

The butt plates did take on a more severe crescent shape as time went on as the entire architecture got more (sharp/severe - not sure how to describe it).

Take note particularly in the last two rifles in the picture of an early flintlock compared to a late Caleb half-stock.




All of these are Vincent's, so following any of the architecture would be "correct", you don't necessarily need the severe butt plate and high/thin comb line, even though that is usually what comes to mind when someone mentions "a Vincent".

g rummell

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2014, 10:30:46 PM »
Mr. Rummel...nice start to your rifle.  It's great to see someone else who gets by with a swivel base machinist's vise.  That's all I have and need.

Taylor, I've been using that vice for the last 30 or so years and it works just fine. I'm not sure how my building skills would re act to one of those new fangled vices.

RB, I agree the radical shaped butt plate was probably something found in the late percussion era, however, that's what the customer requested. Keep in mind also that this type of buttplate was made to shoot off the bicep not the shoulder and if you use that style of shooting, it's not too bad.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 04:22:46 PM by G.Rummell »

bedbugbilly

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2014, 11:50:41 PM »
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions.  I've decided to leave the forearm as long as I can during the build - that makes sense - and then I'll be able to see more clearly what the balance point is when the rough shaping of the blanks done. 

After looking at photos of more original half-stocks - it appears that the forearms are all different lengths in regards to the barrel length - once again, probably for most it's the relationship to the balance point.

I have a solid under-rib on hand so will probably utilize that on this rifle.  As far as the barrel pin location, I'll probable pace it about halfway between the front of the lock molding and the anticipated end of the fore stock.  Perhaps a little further towards the tip of the fore stock depending on where it falls in relation to the distance from the breech.

JKelly - I agree with you on using a brace for drilling ramrod holes.  Back inMI, I have two ramrod hole drills that I had made up using brad point drills - one 5/16" (small calibers) and one 3/8" (larger calibers).  On this .40, I'm going to use a 3/8" rod as there will be times I don't want to carry a range rod with me.  I'm making a jig that will be able to be clamped to the bench along with this half stock blank - it will allow me to start the hole with a 3/8" brad point drill.  Then, once I've gone in as far as I can with it, I'll switch to a 3/8" X 18" drill bit - taking it very slow and frequent chip clearing.  I've never tried it this way so we'll see!  With the brad point drills, I've never had one wander on me - on full stocks, I use the ramrod channel with about 4 "guide blocks clamped over the ramrod channel to insure the drill feeds in correctly.

The stock blank I'm using is one I cut out of a shorter plank that I picked up at a gunshot probably 25 years ago.  It isn't overly thick so with the buttplate I'm using, I won't be able to have a cheek piece unless I decide to inlay one in.  This will be a RH rifle - but my central vision in my right eye is no longer good so it will be shot LH.  The stock blank has quite a bit of curl in it in spots and it's presented a challenge.  I'm a cabinet maker by trade so I've worked with many species - at times, this blank is almost as frustrating as working with birdseye maple.  But, I'm having a good time so that's what it's all about.

G. Rommell - that is one mighty fine looking Vincent!  I've always admired that style - so sleek and slender!  One of those just may have to be my "winter project" next year!  Beautiful work and beautiful lines!

Thanks again everyone for you thoughts and suggestions - all very helpful and it has made things a little more clear in regards to what I need to do.    :)


Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 12:10:01 AM »
In George Shumway's book of articles published in Muzzle Blasts mag. on page 12-13 there is an article with photos of a nice Halfstock flinter made by Jacob Kunz of Philada.

rhbrink

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2014, 12:40:26 AM »
galamb, thanks a lot for the pictures and information that gives me more to work with.

G. Rummell, I do shoot off my arm but have large arms and that just looks uncomfortable to me. Plus the fact that I'm making this build to use in the Squirrel rifle bench rest matches and I figured that it just might double in as a offhand rifle sometimes although I have a very good rifle built for offhand shooting.

Richard

Offline Captchee

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2014, 05:29:19 PM »
  how about this Erichson
 calibers bigger then what your looking at but  still .
Quote
rifle measures 61 inches overall and has a 43 5/8", .51 caliber, swamped barrel


galamb

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2014, 07:07:18 PM »
How can you choose just one Ohio Half-Stock.

You need a least a couple :)


Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2014, 11:04:21 PM »


 I Know it's not a flinter, but the lines are really appealing to me.

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

rhbrink

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2014, 11:17:03 PM »
Thanks guys  the Erichson that Captchee put up on post #16 looks good to me just might head that direction. I have also been looking at the New England style target rifle with a back action lock as a possible build. I'm slowly progressing towards smaller calibers less lead and powder just getting older I guess.

Richard

SteveMKentucky

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Re: Buildingh a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2014, 05:15:50 PM »
...
RB, I agree the radical shaped butt plate was probably something found in the late percussion era, however, that's what the customer requested. Keep in mind also that this type of buttplate was made to shoot of the bicep not the shoulder and if you use that style of shooting, it's not too bad.

It looks like it would be lethal if used to butt-stroke someone.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2014, 05:22:57 PM »
Log Cabin SHop, Lodi, Ohio, has a museum with a number of original Vincents. Nice collection of other Ohio rifles.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Thom

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2014, 09:27:26 PM »
I would like to plan a trip to Lodi to study the origionals before I design a Vincent. The reason I stated that a Vincent might be difficult for a new builder to build a proper Vincent is that I have read there are so many details that you must see origionals to get. Also, I have read that in shaping a Vincent you "remove wood untill your scared and then remove some more." Removing enough wood was very difficult for me on my first build. I call my first rifle "A study in poor rifle architecture". That was however, before the internet and the support one can get here.

galamb

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2014, 11:41:35 PM »
Thom, I agree with you. I believe there are some original builders that you shouldn't undertake until you have had some practice on a few rifles or else you wouldn't be able to do them any justice.

For me rifles built by Vincent, Beck, Armstrong and Dickert may be on my "long term wanna build list", but until I have a few more "generic" Ohio, Maryland etc rifles under my belt I will build within my limited skills and they will simply remain "on the list".

I would rather have a decent "generic" than a "masterpiece" that is "lacking".

galudwig

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Re: Building a half-stock flintlock rifle - need some suggestions please
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2014, 02:46:21 AM »
Here is a nice half stock flinter built by Jack Rouse of Kentucky.  I picked it up at an auction several years ago for next to nothing.  Jack specialized in building southern style rifles.  However, he told me at least one of his his stock patterns (including this one) was based on a Beck rifle.     









galudwig