Author Topic: barrel geometry (Read 8548 times)

Nordnecker · « **on:** February 02, 2014, 12:32:37 AM »

I bought a barrel -44" oct/round .54 smoothbore made by Ed Rayl. The oct section is 1.001 at the breech, 1.009 at the wedding band. Round is .782 at wedding band, .759 at the muzzle. I haven't measured very many barrels, but it looks a little strange to me. I checked out a friends' fowler and the barrel was completely opposite of this one, tapered octagon and a parallel round section.
What do you guys think?

ddoyle · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2014, 08:23:46 AM »

I think the trick with barrel buying is to know exactly what you want and ask the builder for that specifically or find a vendor with what you require. It is common to see straight octagon and tapered round barrels for sale. I bought a fowler barrel yeserday and it took 2 days of long distance calls and alot of helpful sellers willing to give me time to find what I wanted. Ended up finding the exact profile, cost a couple bucks more but worth it.

I do not know if this is a good idea or not but if I had a stright octagon and a tapered round barrel I would be tempted to study it real good and then maybe file the top flats to a taper? All depends on what kind of sight picture you want and how you want the gun to look. Take this advice as free cause I never have done it and have not thought it out.

The benefit to the straight oct is you can inlet it much easier because you can make a scraper that will do the whole oct lenght.

little joe · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2014, 01:36:39 PM »

First of all is the bbl marked with ED,s logo? I have a bbl from other sources which matches your dementions. The bore is good and the exterior looks good other than the odd dementions.I,v delt with Ed several times and always got what I ordered even some pretty odd stuff. I think someone sold you a counterfiet Rayl bbl. Contact Ed and if is his he will do you right. Joe

Dphariss · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2014, 05:44:11 PM »

Quote from: Nordnecker on February 02, 2014, 12:32:37 AM

I bought a barrel -44" oct/round .54 smoothbore made by Ed Rayl. The oct section is 1.001 at the breech, 1.009 at the wedding band. Round is .782 at wedding band, .759 at the muzzle. I haven't measured very many barrels, but it looks a little strange to me. I checked out a friends' fowler and the barrel was completely opposite of this one, tapered octagon and a parallel round section.
What do you guys think?

Both the octagonal and the round section is usually tapered.
However, a deep step at the octagon/round transition is a no-no.

Dan

necchi · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2014, 08:40:40 PM »

Quote from: Dphariss on February 02, 2014, 05:44:11 PM

However, a deep step at the octagon/round transition is a no-no.

Not rebutting just curious, Why?

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2014, 08:56:46 PM »

If it really is a Rayle barrel, it will be tough filing, but if it were mine, I'd be reducing the octagonal part at the band to create a tapered octagonal section. The barrel at the band should not be larger than the breech to start with. It wouldn't take but a couple of hours to reduce the flats to make a nice tapered octagonal section.

C Wallingford · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2014, 09:24:29 PM »

Quote

I think someone sold you a counterfiet Rayl bbl. Contact Ed and if is his he will do you right. Joe

Gentlemen--
I am the person that sold Nordnecker the barrel. I can assure all of you that IT IS NOT A FAKE BARREL.. The barrel was made to another person's specifications and I bought it directly from Ed. Nordnecker asked for an octagon to round smooth barrel, that is what I sold him
Conclusions should not be drawn until you have the entire story

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2014, 09:57:41 PM »

Quote

The barrel was made to another person's specifications and I bought it directly from Ed. Nordnecker asked for an octagon to round smooth barrel, that is what I sold him
Conclusions should not be drawn until you have the entire story

I was getting ready to say the same thing, Ed Rayl only makes CUSTOM barrels to the customers dimensions. I have never gotten anything but what I ordered from Ed.
Dennis

James Rogers · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2014, 11:42:02 PM »

Sounds like a nice barrel. I bet someone ordered it that way to do some custom handwork. If that thing was shorter I would be trying to buy it off you : )

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2014, 12:08:10 AM »

...hacksaw, file, etc.?

little joe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2014, 03:48:18 AM »

Quote from: C Wallingford on February 02, 2014, 09:24:29 PM

Quote
I think someone sold you a counterfiet Rayl bbl. Contact Ed and if is his he will do you right. Joe

Gentlemen--
I am the person that sold Nordnecker the barrel. I can assure all of you that IT IS NOT A FAKE BARREL.. The barrel was made to another person's specifications and I bought it directly from Ed. Nordnecker asked for an octagon to round smooth barrel, that is what I sold him
Conclusions should not be drawn until you have the entire story

Charley I was trying to be polite as I don,t like to see peoples names brought up on the board when we don,t know the story from both sides. If I offended you, I,m sorry. I was trying to give the guy some polite advice and it didn,t work. I,m dam well old enough to know better than to get wraped up in the $#@* in the first place. I,v built over 300 guns and I only ever got 1 bad bbl and the maker made it right. Haveb a good day

Don Getz · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2014, 04:36:46 AM »

"Normally" an octagon to round barrel would have the shape of an octagon swamped barrel. There are exceptions to this,
some oct to round barrels are made with no flair at the muzzle. The Tulle Fowlers that were made by a company out near
Pittsburg used straight octagon barrel and merely kept the rear section octagon, and turned the forward section into a round
straight taper to the muzzle. These were easier to do, but not correct for the gun. A good octagon to round barrel would
have a tapered octagon section, changing to an all roound forward section that would be tapered for a given distance, then
were turned straight, then slightly flaired, or, remained straighit, depending on the gun you were doing. One place where
many octagon to round barrels are screwed up is at the wedding band at the end of the octagon section. The wedding band
is a transition from octagon to round. We always cut the bands into the octagon section so that the band was not cut down
into the round section.

If you bought an Ed Rayl barrel that was shaped like you have described it, I feel that someone would have ordered it like this.
I'm sure this is not a standard fowler barrel from Ed.......Don

Nordnecker · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2014, 04:22:39 PM »

I've had a little time to think about this over the weekend. I'm not going to attack the barrel with files at this point in time. Sat afternoon I cut out a sacrificial blank out of a piece of trashy walnut. I'm going to practice inleting the barrel and pretty much everything else into this piece of wood so I can make my mistakes without consequence. I also thought that it would be a good idea to locate the bottom lugs and front sight before any doing any filing to the flats.
When I hold the barrel up to my eye as if it were in a stock. I can't focus any closer than the forward end of the flats- I could almost file a notch there for a rear sight (probably not).
Looking through Grinslade's book on fowlers, many of the Kentucky guns have breech and muzzle dimensions very close to this barrel. 3/4" at the muzzle shows up again and again. These barrels couldn't have been swamped to be .54 cal, 1/8" wall , and 3/4 at the muzzle, right?
I don't have an issue with that anyway. I've been a shotgunner all my life. I would think that a slender muzzle would be a little quicker to point at a moving target. I also don't have an issue with the maker or the seller of this barrel.
This being my first gun build, I'll probably anguish over every little detail way too much.

Nordnecker · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2014, 11:05:28 PM »

I was able to look at a few original long rifles today at a small gunshow. It really put my mind at ease as to the shape of my barrel. Actually, I'm glad that it wasn't a show full of flintlocks as that can get a little overwhelming, all the details blend together. There were a couple of VA rifles and one English fowler. One of the VA rifles and the fowler had oct/round barrels. The wedding band on both appeared to be more down on the round than above it. The flats seemed to taper, but not much. The English gun was 13" to the wb, the Va was 15". The Va gun had a nice treatment right at the end of the octagon section. Rather than being filed into 16 sided for an inch or two, the corners had been filed rather suddenly into a triangle shape, probably no more than a 1/4" long.

ddoyle · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2014, 12:51:36 PM »

Maybe do not cut any dovetails or solder any tennons on just yet. Right now you have a choice of which flat is the top one, shame to loose options too early.

Nordnecker · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2014, 04:02:01 PM »

Actually, I don't. The BP is already set and match marked. I wanted to remove it so I could see down the bore and to make inletting the barrel a little easier. I filled for an hr or two yesterday evening and it looks better, but I've got a ways to go.

Dphariss · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2014, 05:22:15 PM »

Quote from: necchi on February 02, 2014, 08:40:40 PM

Quote from: Dphariss on February 02, 2014, 05:44:11 PM
However, a deep step at the octagon/round transition is a no-no.
Not rebutting just curious, Why?

If I REALLY told you someone would just get P.O.ed, probably will anyway, they always do. But the term "stress riser" should be the first thing that enters ones mind.
Not to mention it looks like sh&t, seemingly done by a first year HS shop class.
I bet that a lap cast in the muzzle and bumped to a tight fit cannot be pushed to the breech easily if at all. But what the heck its just a ML anyway. Not like its a "real" firearm or anything.

Dan

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2014, 05:52:30 PM »

Stress riser is a good point.

Another stress riser would be a dovetail cut deeply, close to the bore.

Any of these risers that are in a high pressure zone of the barrel should be avoided. The pressure is the highest in the breech, as the powder ignites and builds pressure, finally getting the ball moving.

Dan, has anyone done a pressure analysis test for muzzleloader barrels, what pressures are along a given length, given load, etc?

When you look at original barrels, some fowlers and pistols have wafer-thin muzzles, and big fat breeches. The old timers knew the pressure drops as the load gets up to speed, and the barrel keeps thinning as it goes toward the muzzle end. Was this borne of experience, or science?

rich pierce · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2014, 10:23:26 PM »

The old Lyman book had LUP measurements in it, if I remember correctly.

Habu · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2014, 06:58:42 AM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on February 10, 2014, 05:52:30 PM

Dan, has anyone done a pressure analysis test for muzzleloader barrels, what pressures are along a given length, given load, etc?

After the Oehler 43 came out, a lot of folks were looking at stuff like this; for a time, we even had a mailing list to discuss it. Unless one of the engineers published something in one of the trade journals, I suspect none of it has been published. We all learned a lesson from the way Mr. Kelly has been treated over the years following his comments about barrel steels.

Dphariss · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:46:13 PM »

Someplace I have the NRA grant in aid study of BP pressures in a 50-140. This was done as a study of BP pressures vs Duplex pressures. There was a considerable amount of discussion of this at the early BPCR Silhouette Nats shooters meetings. It was pointed out that duplex could over pressure old actions and barrels. The study proved it and for this reason and the fact that it was impossible to enforce a percentage limit it was banned.

Dovetails: It is possible to "feel" the dove tail with a tight patch on a short jag on barrels that have been shot usually. I have seen photos of either early TCs or copies that split at the the deep dovetail under the forearm.
James Kelly did an article for the Buckskin Report years ago titled "Residual Stresses in Gun Barrels" and I could post it here. But I won't. Since it disagrees with "experts" in some way or another I am sure.
Stress risers are especially bad in cold rolled steels, it can and from reports has, resulted in octagonal to round barrels blowing off at the apparently too deep "wedding bands". This is past the point of peak pressure BTW.

Dan

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Author Topic: barrel geometry (Read 8548 times)

ddoyle

necchi

ddoyle