Author Topic: Staining and finishing european walnut?  (Read 16762 times)

Hemo

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Staining and finishing european walnut?
« on: February 04, 2014, 06:38:46 PM »
I am about ready to do the final wood finishing on an early 18th century German/Dutch dragoon type pistol I've been working on for some time. I have previously used LMF stains on european walnut and maple, but going through my shelf stock, I find I'm just about out of LMF stains. I came across a bottle of Birchwood Casey Rusty Walnut stain which I have never used. Apparently this is a water based stain. I applied some to a scrap of my stock wood and the color is not bad. Has anyone used this product, or have any other recommendations?

As to final finishing, I have used LMF sealer and stock finish previously, but the final finish is a little too glossy for my taste. I have not yet used Chambers finishing oil, and was thinking about trying some. Again, any recommendations on the Chambers product, or any other finishes?

I'll post some pics when I'm done. So far, I like the way it's looking!

Thanks to all in advance,

Hemo

Offline Artificer

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 06:56:50 PM »
I hope I will be excused for saying I have refinished hundreds of M1 Garand Stock Sets.  I USED to buy Birchwood Casey's Walnut stain in quantities of two to three bottles every couple of months.  Then about 10 years ago or so, they switched the formula from where it was a very nice walnut stain with a nice bit of red in it to the "New/Improved Formula" that had just a dark almost chocolate stain without red in it.   I tried one of the then "newer" bottles and intensely disliked the color it gave, so I quit using Birchwood Casey Walnut stain altogether.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 06:58:57 PM by Artificer »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 07:16:27 PM »
Oh, have you ever tried leather dye to stain your stock wood?  Leather dye is a spirit stain, meaning it has alcohol in it, so it is completely useful for wood.  If you have a Tandy store close by, I recommend the Medium Brown color Fiebing's dye to give a nice brown color that has red in it.  The dark brown is a bit too dark for my taste and it does not appear to have any red in it.  


I also used to use Lincoln Brand Shoe Dye in Medium Brown, but the small stores I got it from went out of business, so I don't buy it any more for that reason only.  

I have found with leather dye or spirit stains that it is best to apply a sealer coat of finish (I used Tru Oil) and then lightly sand the wood with whatever grit you last used.  Then I  use the leather dye as a "wiping stain" where you build up the color by wetting and quickly drying an area with paper towels.  After you get an even color you like, then let it dry overnight.  The next day, rub the dickens out of it with an old terry cloth washcloth or towel.  THEN take it outside to see what it looks like.  If the color looks good, then you add finish.  If the color is too light or dark, then you can fix it by adding more color if too light or using a wad of paper towels dipped in rubbing alcohol, squeezed back to damp, then used  with a wiping motion to take some color off where you want it.

I understand many people do not like Tru Oil because it gives a really shiny coat.  NO problem!  After building up about 3 to 4 coats, go over it with a scotchbrite type pad that is grey in color which is about the same as 00 steel wool.  Then rub the dickens out of it again with the terrycloth towel and the finish will then look like a warm "glow" of oil.

Gus

« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 07:20:11 PM by Artificer »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 08:00:44 PM »
This is before and after. Shop made boiled linseed oil, pretty dark. First coat cut with real turpentine.
It generally takes a few days or a week for the color to develop and it may darken slightly over the next month. Its not instant. Putting it in the sun will help. Modern transparent finishes will not do this. Tung oil being a natural oil may. But I don't use tung oil.

Dan


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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 08:03:31 PM »
If you want something redder try Brownells Spirit Stains. English Red and/or Pre-64. I have used the Pre-64 to match pale black walnut to darker areas with usually pretty good success.

Dan
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Offline Robby

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 08:14:24 PM »
Try a some aqua fortis on your scrap wood. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.
Robby
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Offline wmrike

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 09:31:44 PM »
I typically use Pilkington's golden brown stained oil (Brownell's) on English.  It darkens the wood only slightly and adds contrast to the grain.  Nice stuff.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 01:32:31 AM »
I've seen some beautiful pieces stained with just diluted nitric acid.  Don't recall the strength.  Maybe diluted five or ten to one with water.  I've used ferric nitrate, but it can be tricky.  Can tend to go too dark if your not careful.  It did turn out pretty well in the end, though.  Nothing looks worse than weak colored walnut in my view.  Yuk!

Online James Rogers

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 02:11:07 AM »
I've seen some beautiful pieces stained with just diluted nitric acid.  Don't recall the strength.  Maybe diluted five or ten to one with water.  I've used ferric nitrate, but it can be tricky.  Can tend to go too dark if your not careful.  It did turn out pretty well in the end, though.  Nothing looks worse than weak colored walnut in my view.  Yuk!

I have also used nitric with a 1-5 ratio with good results.

Offline David Rase

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 03:24:21 AM »
I have heard that too strong of a nitric solution will turn walnut black?
David

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 04:06:49 AM »
Does Aqua Fortis and/or Nitric Acid cause an even color throughout the stock without having to use a base coat of oil to ensure the end grain does not darken too much?  By end grain; I’m referring to the rear of the grip, front and back of the cheek piece, and front of the bottom of the butt.

The reason I ask is because I have a copy of an 1820 cabinet maker’s guide where most of the information on staining wood goes back to 17th and 18th century.  It talks about the necessity of applying a base coat of finish, before staining, to ensure the stain will go on evenly and not get sucked into the end grain and cause it to look blotchy.
Gus
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 04:13:01 AM by Artificer »

Hemo

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 06:25:52 AM »
Thanks to all for your suggestions.  I have tried to find some Fiebings leather dye on previous projects, but I appear to have no local supplier. Nitric acid, applied sparingly, sounds like a good idea. Would I heat it after application?

Also, I'm still interested in people's experience with Chambers oil finish.

Hemo

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 06:03:42 PM »
Thanks to all for your suggestions.  I have tried to find some Fiebings leather dye on previous projects, but I appear to have no local supplier. Nitric acid, applied sparingly, sounds like a good idea. Would I heat it after application?

Also, I'm still interested in people's experience with Chambers oil finish.

Hemo

Frankly I would not stain it at all. I never stain walnut unless matching colors like on a military rifle handguard etc. or its really pale. But I don't use store bought or synthetic finishes.
Generally staining good walnut does nothing but make it darker and powerful stains like leather die may well make the stock look painted unless very carefully used. While this may give a desired color it seldom beautifies the wood and may cover or obscure the figure.
Chambers should work fine but again I would cut it 10% or more with turpentine (real turpentine) for the initial coat mix this is a separate container. This aids penetration and adds a little more resin to the oil. It will thicken pretty fast and can be used for top coats if too much is made. Apply Heavily, unless the stuff drys too fast, a problem with commercial finishes. I then heat, carefull, with a paint stripper "gun" to give better penetration. Unless it drys to fast. The drying characteristics of most commercial finishes is one reason I make my own. Chambers will likely work OK from a friends reports, but I have not used it personally. Tru-oil needs to be cut 50-50 with boiled linseed oil to actually make it an oil finish that is workable since it invariably dries far too fast and is far too hard as well since its only 11% Linseed oil, 56% mineral spirits and 33% "modified oil" (proprietary). I have heard it described as "a cheap phenolic varnish" buy someone who has studied such things.
Most over the counter varnishes and stock finishes are about 50% more or less solvent, mineral spirits, Stoddard solvent etc.

Dan
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Offline Curtis

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 07:04:10 PM »
Hemo, this was finished with Chambers oil and no stain, it is English walnut.





Curtis
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 07:05:19 PM by Curtis »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 07:20:17 PM »
Every piece of wood is different. try a test piece first.

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DaveP (UK)

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 10:55:07 PM »
I have a copy of an 1820 cabinet maker’s guide where most of the information on staining wood goes back to 17th and 18th century.  It talks about the necessity of applying a base coat of finish, before staining, to ensure the stain will go on evenly and not get sucked into the end grain and cause it to look blotchy.
Gus

Does your book offer any details about what types of wood, finish or stain are under  discussion? I ask because my experience has been that just about anything that gets onto wood - previous finishes, glue traces that you have "removed", even sweaty fingerprints, can cause more problems than I want to deal with when it comes to applying stains.
Having said that, I do remember being told that it can be helpful to dampen some timbers with a sponge before using water based stains, but that's hardly a finish!

Habitually curious I'm afraid  :)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 11:04:04 PM »
Thanks to all for your suggestions.  I have tried to find some Fiebings leather dye on previous projects, but I appear to have no local supplier. Nitric acid, applied sparingly, sounds like a good idea. Would I heat it after application?

Also, I'm still interested in people's experience with Chambers oil finish.

Hemo

Yeah, heat the same as you would with a ferric nitrate solution.  I've used ferric nitrate, but not a straight nitric solution.  The example I saw with the straight nitric looked very nice though.  Whenever I stain European walnut again, I'll be trying this first.  I think James might have some test pieces.  Perhaps he can show a picture of them? 

Walnut will vary a lot in color.  A good piece might not need stain, but much of what I've encountered could certainly benefit from it in my view.  Like I said, pale, weak colored European walnut turns me off.  Same applies to black walnut. 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 03:22:35 AM »
I have a copy of an 1820 cabinet maker’s guide where most of the information on staining wood goes back to 17th and 18th century.  It talks about the necessity of applying a base coat of finish, before staining, to ensure the stain will go on evenly and not get sucked into the end grain and cause it to look blotchy.
Gus

Does your book offer any details about what types of wood, finish or stain are under  discussion? I ask because my experience has been that just about anything that gets onto wood - previous finishes, glue traces that you have "removed", even sweaty fingerprints, can cause more problems than I want to deal with when it comes to applying stains.
Having said that, I do remember being told that it can be helpful to dampen some timbers with a sponge before using water based stains, but that's hardly a finish!

Habitually curious I'm afraid  :)

Hi Dave,
Of course I can’t easily find the booklet I mentioned earlier now that I’d like to.  I got the book from the little bookshop at an historic 1760’s era large home (open as a museum) we visited near I think it was near York, PA about 10 to 12 years ago.  We were way early for an appointment, so we visited the home to burn up some time. 

What was remarkable to me was the fact the author copied both 17th and 18th century information word by word in some sections with no regard for at least mentioning who wrote the information originally, let alone worrying about plagiarism.  That is how one can tell the earliest portions of the book by the type of English used, though the author states the information came from both centuries as well as more “modern” information of the early 19th century.   

The woods discussed include mahogany, walnut, birch and pine; though I don’t remember if it discussed other woods like oak. (It may have and I just skipped over it.)

Wood finishes included Milk Paint, Wax (both hard and soft), Linseed Oil and various types of varnishes as well as the then “newer” shellac finish and some basic formulae for them, though not exact enough to replicate. 

The stains mentioned discussed various types of mordants, though the casual manner of mentioning them and any recipes for any of the stains and finishes can not be followed as the descriptions are vague at best.  I was struck by similarity to my own Maternal Grandmother’s household “book” that had recipes for food and even floor and furniture cleaners from the 1920’s and 30’s. 

IOW, the book was written most likely by someone who was not in the trade, but rather a fairly detailed study and far more detailed than say Diderot’s Encyclopedia.  It seemed clear to me the author had visited more than one shop and probably visited a good number of them.

Still, the book was good for a few “real gems” of information like applying one layer of finish (linseed oil with lead in it or varnish or shellac) then sanding it back before applying the stain to keep the staining process even and especially on end grain. 

When the book surfaces again, I’ll PM you with the title and other information, if you would like.

Gus

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 04:39:36 AM »
Still, the book was good for a few “real gems” of information like applying one layer of finish (linseed oil with lead in it or varnish or shellac) then sanding it back before applying the stain to keep the staining process even and especially on end grain. 

Wouldn't that cover up any curl in the wood, though?
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 06:47:24 AM »
Elnathan,

If staining is done too much and normally that means too dark, yes it will cover up the curl in the wood, no matter what type of stain is used, i.e. dyes or pigments.  Oh, I guess I should distinguish between types of stains.  The coloring of a dye comes from microscopic crystals while pigments in a stain are much larger in size.  Dyes thus work better on fine grained woods like maple or cherry. 

When I stain wood, it is for one of two reasons.  1.  I am trying to darken the wood slightly where there are light areas and to better show off the effects of the grain or 2.  I am trying to match the color of two or more pieces of wood as in the stock and hand guards of an M1 stock set.

What one layer of finish applied and then the surface sanded back does is keep the end grain from absorbing too much stain and look blotchy.  Perhaps the best way to describe it is to think of staining the flat sides of a board compared to the two ends.  The two ends suck up more stain and are much darker with the same amount of stain. On a gun stock, end grain shows up every place there is curve or change in profile vs the normal wood grain.   That’s why on M1 Garand stocks that are poorly stained, you see darker/blotchier areas on the bottom and top of the grip, the front of the cheek area and even right ahead of the trigger housing plate on the bottom of the stock. 

After doing some research on Aqua Fortis stains, it looks to me like the color is built up more slowly than dyes and perhaps people just stop applying more of it in the end grain areas of the stock while they use more on the normal sections of grain? 
Gus

DaveP (UK)

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2014, 02:14:12 AM »
When the book surfaces again, I’ll PM you with the title and other information, if you would like

Good of you - but, TBH, I wouldn't bother, I'd probably never be able to find a copy anyway  :)
But, if next time you see it, you find recommendations for specific combinations of materials, that might well be food for discussion.
Personally I have learnt to relish natural wood tones. Well maybe a hint of red for warmth, so I don't suffer from uneven uptake. Call me weird if you will, but I even like natural birch for a gunstock - but perhaps not for a flintlock!

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2014, 04:16:19 AM »
Gus, the
If I understand correctly, curly wood is has wavy grain and the lines we see in the smoothed wood is the contrast between the areas were the ends of the fibers have been sheered away and where they are parallel to the surface. If you treat the wood so that stain doesn't sink into the cut ends any differently than it is absorbed the parallel fibers, I would think that that would tend to obscure the curl.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2014, 05:01:29 AM »
Gus, the
If I understand correctly, curly wood is has wavy grain and the lines we see in the smoothed wood is the contrast between the areas were the ends of the fibers have been sheered away and where they are parallel to the surface. If you treat the wood so that stain doesn't sink into the cut ends any differently than it is absorbed the parallel fibers, I would think that that would tend to obscure the curl.

Elnathan,

OK, let me try explaining it differently.  Maple especially, tends to be a very light colored wood where the grain and especially the curl does not stand out as noticeably when a clear finish is put on it as when an Aqua Fortis or other stain is used on it before the finish.  Thus any of these stains "brings out" or makes it easier for the human eye to discern the curl when the stain is not too dark overall.  

I am not nearly as experienced using Aqua Fortis as most people here.  Looking at the You Tube demonstrations "seemed" to show it was absorbed more deeply into end grain on knife handles and turn that darker than the same amount of stain wiped over the length of the knife handles - after heat was applied in what looked like was done very evenly.  Maybe that is not true and is only caused by the camera or my eyes.  

What I do know is that when one uses dyes to color stock wood, that ALL the end grain sucks up the dye deeper and faster than the "running grain" of the rest of the wood.  That makes those areas look blotchy as more stain was absorbed.  Thus by applying a coat of OIL over the entire stock and then sanding it back down, the stain more evenly is absorbed into all the exposed wood and you get a more even color coating.

Gus.  

Edited to change the word stain in the above to OIL.  Sorry about that. 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 06:19:22 AM by Artificer »

Phillip Smith

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2014, 06:07:40 AM »
This is the sample that Jim is talking about. English Walnut with nitric acid at a ratio of 5:1 with Tried and True Varnish Oil. A very nice look in my opinion. The dark sample is nitric acid with iron dissolved in it and a ratio of 3:1 with the same finish. Not so good but that is why we make samples.



Offline Dphariss

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Re: Staining and finishing european walnut?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2014, 07:12:46 AM »
One other thing that is not always understood. "Varnish" back in the day was just about anything that would dry to a shine. Oil varnishes and spirit varnishes.
Musical instruments often were coated with much harder varnishes than firearms. Higher temp and expensive resins were often used. These resins were much harder to combine with the oil some requiring temps so high that a small error would spoil the varnish.
Softer, cheaper resins were generally used for firearms and in lower ratios. First the vanish was easier to make and second being softer it was far more durable in the conditions firearms are used in. Really hard varnishes do not do well on firearms.
Would have to dive into the Mad Monk files to find the different resins.

Dan
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