Sharpening v tools for outline and incised work.

[DaveP (UK)]

I've just been watching a short youtube clip of Homer Dangler and I noticed that he holds his v tool at about 70degrees to the surface while tapping it along his line. If I tried that with mine it would just sink in    My v tools cut, but I took the keel angle right down in the process of getting there and at the lower presentation angles I use my ability to execute a tight curve is rather limited because of the length of tool buried in the wood.
I guess I probably need to get a new one or cut off about half an inch and sharpen from scratch. Again...
 I sharpen my edges at about 20 to 22 degrees but as I said, the keel angle is a lot less - partly from slimming down a fairly thick blade. I'd appreciate some advice about what sharpening angles to aim for.

[Thom]

Here is a link for a PDF that is 102 pages. Very informative, I think I got it here off a previous

 post.http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/SelectingAndSharpeningYourVtool.pdf

[DaveP (UK)]

Ah - Chris Pye! I've seen and used this before. Its good stuff, but He's talking about general carving applications. Homer Dangler's chisel seemed to be working in a different way altogether, and because it was at such a steep angle he was able to follow tight curves with a large tool, 1/4" at least.
That leads to another question of course. If I need a different type of edge I'll probably try to get another chisel. My current V happens to be 1/4 across. Should I stay with the size or get say a 1/8 V to get into corners better?

[Curtis]

I believe if you follow the sharpening instructions in the link Thom posted you will be cutting with your tool at a similar angle to what you see Homer Dangler do in the video.  It worked out that way for me anyway.  You will have to determine if your V gouge is suitable for reshaping or not. 

Curtis

[DaveP (UK)]

Thank you Curtis, that's a very useful comment - if something of a bitter pill to swallow. I obviously haven't done as well as I thought I had.

Apologies to you, Thom - I fully intended to say "Thanks" for your suggestion, but forgot. That is indeed a good resource, and one that I apparently need to revisit.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have found the V tool very difficult to sharpen properly, mostly due to burrs that pose as solid edge.

1) make sure the inside V is a good accurate vee groove, and the two wings meet in a small radius at the bottom. You need a loupe to check the tool geometry.

2) a good tool steel is vital. it's wasted effort to sharpen a tool that won't hold an edge.



3) you need a small bevel stoned at the edge, called the heel, or lift. Without this little bevel, you will have no control of the tool. It will just keep diving into the work.

4) I make a brass hone for the INSIDE of the Vee, charged with diamond compound. This not only is a sharpening aid, but will actually keep improving the geometry of the vee, if you keep your brass lap in good shape.

[Thom]

4) I make a brass hone for the INSIDE of the Vee, charged with diamond compound.


I have three different v-tool that I have maintained for years. I still am not confident that I know how to properly sharpen them. I think my biggest problem is the inside of the vee, and properly shaping the radius at the bottom of the vee. I can take my heel down to practically nothing and still have drag. I think this is all caused by the bottom of the vee not being properly shaped. I would be intrested in learning more about Tom's brass hone. I have used wood and leather and have never been satisfied.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have a teensy tiny 16/1 Pfiel vee tool that is a honey for fine line work. A honey, until it's chipped or dull.

For honing the inside, I have a strip of brass, 1/16 thick x 3/4 wide x 4" long, filed to fit down into the vee. You can feel when it fits, there is no wiggle. Pat the sides with some diamond lapping compound, lacking that, some valve grinding compound. Draw this thru the vee, especially when sharpening the outside, this helps prevent burrs on the inside.

Every so often, while sharpening, drive the vee tool straight into some endgrain hardwood to remove the burrs.

[DaveP (UK)]

1/16th? Lets not go there... 
I've been working on a 1/4" 45 deg  vee, which is enormous by comparison. I've been using a wood slip with metal polish to dress the inner faces. Its not a perfect answer, but it's been better since I was given a 4000 grit water stone slip. The wire edge this leaves is so delicate that it's easily removed.
 At least the wood readily conforms to the inner shape of the tool. I tried a shaped stone once. The corner blunted quickly causing the stone to ride on and thin the walls just above the vertex making it impossible to sharpen.
There is a visible flat at the base of the Vee.. Do you think a brass slip would allow me to hollow it out a little without putting uneven wear on the faces?

I've sharpened over 1/8" off this tool today. It now has a shorter steeper keel at something close to the sharpening angle.  I'm glad I took the plunge. It cut freely before but now it is becoming controllable. When its perfected I'll never dare pick it up...

[Acer Saccharum]

I've sharpened over 1/8" off this tool today.

Hahahahahaha... Sadly, I know exactly of what you speak!

[Acer Saccharum]

Here is my attempt to describe the sharpening of these little buggers.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11.0

[KLMoors]

I use the little Flex Cut palm tools for lots of stuff. The steel isn't as nice as some, but it is pretty good. This hone is a real help in keeping them razor sharp. It would probably work for others.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2004364/8962/Flexcut-Slipstrop-Sharpening-Kit.aspx

[DaveP (UK)]

This hone is a real help in keeping them razor sharp. It would probably work for others.

These are available in the UK too, and quite well regarded. I have my doubts about shaped hones between v tools. I have four at the moment and they are all subtly different shapes just inside the angle - the spot where you really, really need a shaped hone.

Acer - that was well hidden. In my book sharpening your chisels is woodwork! 
In essence its the same advice as given by Chris Pye  in the link, but you placed more emphasis on the smallness of the heel. Planning to work in different scales I expect. I'll keep an eye on the belly, but relieving that too much was part of my problem.
Loved the new use for toilet paper - I don't burn things as often as I used to, but wouldn't mind doing better!
I've had a closer look at the tool I've been working on. Its getting close...but there's a tiny tiny spike at the tip with a hint of breakthrough either side. I estimate another half hour on the oilstone to dress the wings back and then slightly increase the radius of the heel and it'll either be "there" or heading back to the grinder 
I did try it out last night. This particular tool is quite wide at the apex and shallow cuts don't have the right profile to look crisp and sharp. A bit like drawing with a blunt pencil. So I'm going to buy a nice new 1/8 vee. I expect it will need touching up when it arrives...

[Acer Saccharum]

I bought a brand new Pfiel, and it cut like crazy for a day, then a big piece of the edge broke away. I think this was just a burr I was cutting with. Lesson learned: no tool comes from the mill sharpened just the way you need it. Prepare your self to learn how to sharpen it.

Dave, I've had that little point, which means more has be stoned off the bottom, but NOT the sides. It's real tricky business. It really sucks when you think you just about have it, when one of your edges gets stoned back too much. Grrr.

I think I've spent up to three hours working on getting my vee tool right. Ground it back 1/8 of an inch in the process. You can't fall asleep at the stone. You gotta have a loupe handy when stoning these tools. Always take the burr off, so you can see the true edge.

This will sound like gibberish to a newbie at the Vee tool, but once you've had an hour or two at the stones, it will begin to make more sense.

It's not easy, even when you know how. 

[Acer Saccharum]

...Dave, I moved the tutorial to 'woodworking tools and techniques'

[Frenchy]

I use a small "V" tool made by Dem-Bart checkering tool makers. They make these small veiners in 70 and 90 degree angles.
I prefer the 70 degree tool personally.
As previously mentioned it is a PITA to sharpen. Fortunately they are made of good steel and properly heat treated.
I re-shape mine very similar to Acer's. Angled back face and short heel. Great tip about laps for the inside. Thanks.
I use a Arkansas bench stone to re-sharpen it. I coat the stone with a bit of oil. Then put the rear edge of the bevel on the stone and rock it forward until I see oil squeeze out at the cutting edge. That means I'm all the way flat on the bevel. I keep it at that angle and pull the tool towards me on the stone. Repeat on the other side.
Be sure that the side bevels meet in the center.
If you have a radius at the bottom of the inside "V" and want it straightened out, you can usually cut it straight with an engraving tool or have an engraver do it for you.

[Acer Saccharum]

Frenchy, that's a good suggestion for a tool with too much of a radius at the bottom of the vee. I can save a couple of nice tools from the dust bin with that idea.

[DaveP (UK)]

   I'm having enough problems shaping the outside without taking on the inside as well! I also have one of those little Dembart tools. I haven't needed to sharpen it yet as I only use it for chequering, but I'm happy to read that its worth sharpening. One day...

Another couple of hours, and I think I finally got there with this chisel. It looks like the diagrams, still cuts freely, turns more freely and I can control the depth, which was problematic before. This all happens at about half the presentation angle that Homer Dangler was using, but I'm quitting while I'm ahead!

Its been quite a sobering episode for me. Watching Homer really did make me wonder if this particular application required a specially prepared tool. I was referred back to instructions I thought I had followed reasonably closely (which got my chisel working better than ever before!) worked through the process again, even more closely, and I'm very happy with the results of doing so.I wouldn't have put myself through this tedious and stressful process again on my own initiative, so I'd just like to say "Thanks for the encouragement!"

...Dave, I moved the tutorial to 'woodworking tools and techniques'

Makes sense to me, but I hope you didn't think I was complaining. I could have searched harder... 

[Acer Saccharum]

No, I went looking for it, too, and found it in 'metal' tutorials. It's better in woodworking.


When cutting around curves roll/lean the tool away from the center of the circle you're cutting. This allows the ridge on the back of the tool to clear the wood without strain, pressure is reduced on the cutting edge, and the curves cut neater.

It's the opposite of the bicycle, which you must lean in toward the center of the circle.