Transitional Rifle Question

[Slippery Pete]

Hello,

I have future plans to build a Christian Springs rifle. I was wondering: Other than a longer barrel, are there any other design elements that make the transitional rifle different from a Jaeger? I am not PC/HC, just getting a little background before I start.

Thanks for any thoughts!

[Slippery Pete]

Forgot question 2....


I am not into decorations much. Would 'plain' rifles have been built back then from the Christian Springs area?

[James Wilson Everett]

Pete,

A great question, but one that has a lot of depth.  One difference that is difficult to notice when looking at photographs of the guns is the gradual, over time, change in the shape of the gunstock comb at its forward end.  The German guns tend to have a wide or thick forward end of the comb, the English guns tend to have a narrow or thin forward end of the comb.  American guns tend to "split the difference" a bit.  Here is a photo of a German rifle, see how the comb in front of and above the patch box cover appears to have very little reduction in thickness, I think that it makes the butt stock look "chubby".



Again, here is a German fowling gun with a similar thick forward end of the comb, almost no reduction in thickness here.



Here is an English trade gun.  See the marked step or reduction in thickness of the comb.  Another way of describing is that the wrist cylinder extends well into the butt.



Here is a Lehigh gun that "splits the difference" between the German and the English guns.  It may be difficult to see in the photo, but there is a significant thinning of the comb here, probably a bit closer to the English style.


My advice for a transitional gun is to shape the comb a good bit thicker than the traditional American longrifle, but not as chubby as the German gun. At least that is my two cents.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

In the Rifles of Colonial America, by Shumway,  Edward Marshal's rifle and some of the early Christian's Spring guns as seen in RCA are good examples of transitional rifles. There are some guns of unknown origins in that RCA set that look like transitional guns.

[rich pierce]

Pete, there are a number of well studied early rifles that are of undetermined origin.  This suggests that in the early years, there were few differences between colonial built rifles and some made at the same time in Europe.  Of course we assume most of the time that if an early rifle is stocked in American walnut, cherry, or curly maple, this points to a colonial stocking of the gun.  Certainly the furniture on the earliest colonial rifles does not differ much from that found on European guns.  There are a number of early rifles strongly believed to have been stocked in the colonies for you to study.  The Schreit rifle dated 1767 (if I recall correctly), the Marshall rifle, the Faber rifle, the "woods runner" rifle, the Fessler rifle (also known as the musicians rifle), and rifles 19 and 40 in Rifles of Colonial America are great guns to study. There are a number of others to study, and photos can be found in websites. Some of us have collected images of early rifles with colonial connections for years.  You'll note a great deal of variety among the earliest rifles, with several commonalities.  Early features include a wide and fairly tall buttplate with little to no curvature, a guard with the rail well off the wrist, a robust buttstock, and architecture that is comfortable for shooting.  Contemporary makers who have mined this area and adhere closely to period examples include Jack Brooks, Mark Silver, Eric Kettenberg, Allen Martin, Mike Brooks, Mark Wheland, Mitch Yates, Tom Curran(Acer here) and a bunch more (don't want to get in trouble here).

If you're strictly looking to build a Christians Spring rifle, then the book on Moravian gunmakers by Steve Hench is affordable and indispensable.

[tallbear]

Pete
If you are serious about building a believable interpretation of a Christian Springs Rifle I suggest you get a copy of the two mentioned books (RCA #1 or Steve Hench's Moravian Book) and study the details.Pick out a rifle you like and use it as a pattern to base your work on. The only way to make a believable interpretation is to study the originals. I would not use any contemporary work to base my idea's from as they will lead you in the wrong direction.

But as you say if you don't care about HC/PC then I guess it doesn't matter.

As to plain guns I think consumers of the day expected some decoration.Even lowly trade guns and Bess's had some carving and decdoration.

Mitch Yates

[RAT]

Pete... I sent you a personal message. I have a handout I can send you, but I would need a physical mailing address. The file is too large to send via email.

[David Rase]

Here is a picture of a plain transitional Christian Springs influenced rifle I built with a 42" barrel.  No carving, German type trigger guard bow with sling swivel and a sliding wooden patchbox lid.

[Pete G.]

As to plain guns I think consumers of the day expected some decoration.Even lowly trade guns and Bess's had some carving and decdoration.

Mitch Yates

Think of the decoration like checkering on a modern rifle. It is pretty much expected. There are a few without it, but very few, and they look cheap. The decoration on a long rifle does not have to be extensive, but some little bit does need to be there.

[Mike Brooks]

Think about this. Transitioning from what to what? The term has always stuck in my craw. I prefer the term "early", seems to fit better.
Back in thew 1970's and 80's some parts sellers started using the term "transitional" to sell parts, we've been stuck with it ever since.

[Acer Saccharum]

Think about this. Transitioning from what to what? The term has always stuck in my craw. I prefer the term "early", seems to fit better.
Back in thew 1970's and 80's some parts sellers started using the term "transitional" to sell parts, we've been stuck with it ever since.

Mike, you can't be working on something that's wedged cross-wise in your craw. You gotta find a way that works for you.

I like to base my work on examples of an era, and when lacking an American example, I draw on the European. Are these fusion guns, transitional, or early, melding, synthesis guns? It boggles my mind. When I'm not copying an original that's on my bench, it's a contemporary work, isn't it? I like to think of these works as 'Historical Novels', something that is based on history, yet I have input, too.

Best advice so far is to study as many originals as possible. FYI, Many museums will allow a hands-on inspection of their collection, or a piece or two from their archives, if given enough notice, or an appointment is made. An example is the Metropolitan Museum in NYC. This was founded an an educational museum, for the public. I have been there on several occasions to study the Kuntz rifles, and on another trip to study some of their jaegers.

[little joe]

Here is a picture of a plain transitional Christian Springs influenced rifle I built with a 42" barrel.  No carving, German type trigger guard bow with sling swivel and a sliding wooden patchbox lid.

David How about posting some more photos of this peice?

[David Rase]

Here is a picture of a plain transitional Christian Springs influenced rifle I built with a 42" barrel.  No carving, German type trigger guard bow with sling swivel and a sliding wooden patchbox lid.

David How about posting some more photos of this peice?

Joe,
There are more pictures of this rifle on the Contemporary Makers Blog from Sept. 4 2012. 
David

[Tom Currie]

Pete, I think it's fair to say that most of us who build with a historical context in mind applaud your effort to do some study before venturing to the workbench.  Your end result will be better for it as well as your appreciation for what you've accomplished.

[Acer Saccharum]

Very well said , Mr Currie.

[Acer Saccharum]

Most of the American early rifles I know of have long barrels, 40" or longer. (There are a few with 35", which is an ideal length if you will be in the woods. )

There are many examples of Euro guns with long barrels, both rifled and smooth.

I know of few examples of short barreled American rifles. (like none)



The long barrel is an American guy thing, they envy other guys' guns with longer barrels, compare guns for bbl length, etc.

[Stophel]

Only two American rifles I can think of with "short" barrels are the fantastically quirky "gun #15" in RCA and "gun #112", which I think is probably Northampton county, and possibly by Berlin.

I PRESUME Gun 15 is American, anyway.  It just does not look like a German gun.  It has a sibling too.  There is a half stocked fowling gun that is very obviously stocked (or restocked) by the same man.

German rifles with "standard" 2 or 2 1/2 foot barrels seem to have been imported into colonial America in fair numbers, judging by newspaper ads I have seen, so these types of arms may have been at least somewhat familiar to those far from the German centers of Pennsylvania and other places.

[Slippery Pete]

Thanks to everyone for your answers.

I've noticed the difference in buttstock design and that is what lead to this question, figuring it was part of the deal. I see how enigmatic my question is, with me not being into PC/HC that much. Mainly just getting research for the future build. Undecorated rifles are not boring and I prefer them to the Liberace look any day.

PM has been sent, RAT, thanks.

[Don Getz]

At one time the Edward Marshall rifle was being built by a lot of gunbuilders.   We made a template for our one milling machine
to produce a 37 1/2" swamped barrel, it was made as big as we could do on that machine.   It had a breech dimension of
1.125, while the original EM rifle had a barrrel that was about 1.150...close enough.   After makeing a few of these barels, we
thought it had a nice profile, we wondered what it would look in a smaller version.  We therefoe did three smaller sizes, an
A weight with a breech size of about  .937, a B weight of 1.000, and a C weight of 1.063.  Since the Edward Marshall was
considered to be a "transitional" rifle, we named the series of barrels our transition series, and made them 38" long, except
for the largest "D" weight which we made 37 1/2".   Shortly after we made this series of barrels, we designed the first Isaac
Haines kit using a B weight barrel.  Bob Lepley had his first Don Allen duplicating machine set up in a corner of our shop.  At
the time, the machine could not do a stock with a barrell longer than 38".   We did develop the methodology to shape that
little skinny forend of a kit gun, something no one else had done yet.  Maybe I should write a book...........Don

[Acer Saccharum]

I'd love to hear more, Don. How you started the business, what kind of challenges and ah-ha! moments, funny stories, etc. That should be its own thread, as it would get lost in this topic.


I was reading the RCA books on various rifles of the early period, guns of unknown origin, etc, and Shumway used the word 'transition' frequently enough. That's a word that sticks in some people's craw, but that's probably where the term originated from. Shumway didn't call these 'transitional guns', so he didn't coin the term.

[volatpluvia]

Don,
I would buy that book.  Include all your experiences in the hobby and business.  I am sure many more would also like to read it.
volatpluvia
Leon Buckwalter

[smylee grouch]

Yes I think Don should have a chapter in the history of our sport just as Roller story. There are others to be sure like Bill Large, Kirkland, Kindig, Paris, etc.,etc.,etc. I would also buy the book. Thanks Don for passing on the history to your son. We will need more like you if we are to survive and pass the batton to our children. Flintlocks Forever.