Author Topic: Barrel Identification  (Read 31729 times)

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2014, 01:05:18 AM »
As a post note about the above pictures the site says that it is a Hawkins/Plains rifle.

I am getting thoroughly confused with these two?
Can some of you experts please help me out?  What is the difference with the Hawkin Rifle and the Plains Rifle?
And what is the trim on each one of these?

I have researched these two rifles on the internet, books and different forums and am getting pulled in different directions,  I know I'm a somewhat beginner, but I want to build the rifle the correct way.

I thank you in advance for your guidance.

Ray Pennington

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2014, 04:37:34 AM »
One of the more experienced Hawken guys can say for sure, but I think that the gun you pictured may be more similar to what Don Stith calls his Deluxe Squirrel on his web site.  Notice the difference in the trigger guards, for instance. The "Plains rifle" is a term like Kleenex as far as I know.

From my understanding, they built bigger caliber guns for the western fur trade and also built guns that were intended for the local folks. The .40 cal. Deluxe Squirrel I built (with Don's parts) is a very petite gun when compared to the Hawken that is usually associated more with the western fur trade and western expansion.

The gun you would be building using the barrel you have would be a bigger, heavier gun, much more similar to what most folks think of when you say "Hawken".
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 04:45:51 AM by KLMoors »

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2014, 03:23:20 PM »
Thanks Ken for the input.  Do you know if I have to use round balls or can I use the more modern mini-balls or conicals?

Offline Longknife

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2014, 07:09:39 PM »
RAY,,,,, KL Moors is right, the "Hawken" that the NRA has on their Web site is a little "squirrel" rifle, Not a Hawken Plains Rifle (sometimes they are referred to Rocky Mountain Rifles) I have seen it before and I wondered where their "experts" were when they made that video. Order a full scale plan from Track and you can see what a Hawken Plains rifle should look like. And Ray, please forget about shooting conicals  or any type of bullet in that barrel, although there is quite a few shooting these they are basically a modern invention and not correct for your barrel.....Ed
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:12:03 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

jamesthomas

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2014, 07:30:30 PM »
 Ray, Longknife is right, a 220 Grain, .54 caliber roundball will put any game that is in the U.S.A in your freezer. So don't even think about conicals, they are not worth it. 

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2014, 01:31:58 AM »
Thank you Longknife  and James e.   The NRA site is just one of the sites I visited and printed pictures to include in my research. Its seems as though NRA needs to be doing more research!! LOL

Question:  It seems the named "Plains" rifle can be more ornate with either brass or silver trim and silver inlays and carvings and a more of a horizontal cheek rest and the named "Hawkin" rifle is kind of plain with a beaver cheek rest?   Is this statement accurate?  I so want to build this rifle as close to the period as I possibly can.
 Also, thanks for clarifying the bullet sizing and type!!!!  Also, did the Hawkin have the two barrel under lugs like the Plains?
As I said before, this "Plains", "Hawkin" and "Lehman" rifle builds are very confusing!!!
I have a semi cut half stock with a beavertail cheek piece, but it looks mis-drilled and off center.

Regards;
Ray Pennington


Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2014, 01:37:18 AM »
Longknife, I forgot to mention that I have ordered the full size plans from Track of the Wolf along with several other items.

One other question; on a pre-inlet barrel stock, is the breech end flat vertical cut the placement for the back of the breech plug and tang excluding the lug?   Please refer to the stock and barrel picture I posted earlier or I will post again if you want?

Gentlemen, I apologize for asking so many questions, but I want to get this build right.


Thanks

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2014, 01:45:17 AM »
OK, just a couple more questions:

Should I stay with steel trim?  i.e.; Fore end cap, rod and entrance tube, side escuthions and pins, etc.?
Would it be proper to inlay steel or silver thumb plate, cheek plate or stars etc?

Thanks

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2014, 02:08:25 AM »
OK, JUST ONE MORE!!! LOL

Should the ramrod be 3/8" or 7/16" and what type ends?

Thanks

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2014, 02:20:55 AM »
A lot of shops made "Plains" rifles. Basically guns intended for sale to the western trade. Sam Hawken made guns of various types including plains rifles. There are exceptions to almost everything ,but to collectors, the big bored, double keyed Hawken half stocks are what they mean whe they use the term "Hawken Plains Rifle"
 A few of those style rifles got built as show pieces mainly for the Mississippi river boat captains. I lost count of how many silver pieces are on the Moses White rifle.  Some of the iron pieces have silver overlays which was also done in North Carolina and Ohio.
 Susect this has just added to the confusion, but I tried
Don

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2014, 04:22:54 PM »
As I said before, this "Plains", "Hawkin" and "Lehman" rifle builds are very confusing!!!
I have a semi cut half stock with a beavertail cheek piece, but it looks mis-drilled and off center.

Regards;
Ray Pennington



Ray, these terms have become confusing because they have become generic, like Saran Wrap or Xerox copies.  If we keep using them as generic terms, the confusion never abates.

A Hawken rifle is a rifle made by a member of the Hawken family or out of the Hawken shop.  Jacob, Sam, etc. Real men with the last name Hawken.  They made a wide variety of rifles over a long period of time to meet a variety of needs.   Early rifles Sam made before he came to St. Louis are fine flintlock longrifles, brass mounted, "Golden Age" longrifles.  While in St. Louis, the local small game rifles and the rifles for the west, known as plains rifles or Rocky Mountain rifles, were their major outputs.  People have spent their lives researching the nuances of styles of Hawken rifles.  For the person who has a barrel and wants to build a gun of the percussion era around it, the question is, which style of gun appeals to them and fits the barrel.

There are a number of good books on Hawken rifles and on Plains rifles, and a lot of information on Lehman rifles.  The worst sources of information are catalogues from suppliers who offer scores of kits.

Lehman rifles are rifles made by gun works run by a fella named Lehman.  In general these were cheaper rifles made in very large numbers.  Some of the ones the kit makers offer are based on very late guns from the 1850s or even later.

Plains rifles or Rocky Mountain rifles are commonly thought of as large caliber, strongly built, often half stock rifles with double set triggers made for the western trade, for the mountain man.  Jacob, Jacob and Sam, and later, Sam Hawken were among the many suppliers of plains rifles and their rifles were considered high end and have become legendary.  There were makers all over, from the east to the upper Midwest, who supplied Plains rifles for the western trade.

If your interest is in building a rifle around your barrel, and not in learning all that is known about the rifles made for the western trade, it's best to decide whether you want a rifle that is based on specific originals or not.  A generic plains rifle may be just fine with you, or you may be the type of guy who wants a "Bridger" Hawken, which would be a copy of a specific Hawken rifle owned by Jim Bridger. It's possible to copy many different specific rifles made by J&S or Sam Hawken.  Or it's possible to study enough of them to put together a Hawken rifle that is representative of a particular time in their production.

It's just as legit but not as popular to build a plains rifle that is not a Hawken rifle.  This could be a copy of a rifle made by another maker, or something generic for the western trade.

Take your time, learn as much as you can or need to, then build something that appeals to you.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Longknife

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2014, 10:22:13 PM »
Ray,  If you want to customize your Hawken plains rifle I would do it in a style that Sam and Jake would have done one in. There are several original Hawken pr's that were customized with patch boxes and inlays, use these as a guide. MOST Hawken PR's were mounted in steel with inlays  of steel and/or silver.  Remember though that  the Mountain men didn't want shiny silver or brass mounts that could reflect light and get them scalped!!!  A finely built Hawken doesn't need any embellishments to look NICE... Here is another book that you need to read  about plains rifles.,,,

http://www.biblio.com/9780882270159

On your ram rod,  3/8 is fine, usually capped with a threaded tip that a cleaning jag screws in to. See your TOTW catalog. The breech/tang is the most important part of the rifle if its not solid accuracy will suffer. You gun building book will explain all that to you. I am not sure what you are referring to about your stock being "off center"???? You need to have someone look at it.....Ed

  






« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 10:32:14 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2014, 11:28:42 PM »
Original plains rifles frequently had tapered ramrods. I'd suggest 1/2" tapered to 3/8" in your 54. The few original rods I have seen on St Louis based Hawken rifles had iron tips on both ends. 
 One advantage to tapered rods is they don't get stuck inside the stock as easily when the humidity goes up.

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2014, 07:46:03 PM »
Don, Rich and Longknife;  Sorry for the delay in answering, but just returned from a heart procedure.  Again, I thank you gentlemen so much for the information.  With the barrel, stock and steel parts I have, I will be going with the double keyed, steel trimmed Hawkin with maybe a couple of silver inlays.  Thank you so much for the guidance.   I am sure that I will be asking a lot more questions from you guys and will be posting some pictures as time goes on.

Regards;
Ray Pennington
South Point, Ohio

Ray Pennington

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2014, 08:01:25 PM »
OK, another question on sights.  Is the dovetailed adjustable rear sight and dovetail copper base and silver top blade front site  proper for this rifle?

Ray

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel Identification
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2014, 11:21:46 PM »
That adjustable rear sight is a dandy and correct but was not common let alone universal from looking at the sources I have available.  So go for it if you like it.  Others had a rear buckhorn sight that was not adjustable.  For a front sight, the copper base with silver blade is right.
Andover, Vermont