Bending stocks to add cast

[d-a]

Any one ever bent a stock to add cast or adjust drop at the heel?

I am left handed and would like to add cast in to a precarve stock. I can not do it the normal way of adjusting the butt plate offset of the center line since there is not enough wood to allow it. I have researched it and have seen many examples of doing the procedure however all I have seen has been on an already finished stock.  I'm going to build a jig for adjusting the stock in a controlled manner and use the oil method since I'm going to have a oil finished stock. Is there anything I should be concerned with?

Thanks

Doug

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I bent a stock of a Tulle musket some time ago to increase the drop at the comb and heel, so that the gun didn't crack your cheek when fired.  I used Canola cooking oil, heated on a hot plate in the shop 'til almost smoking heat.  The musket, lock removed, was clamped over a 2 x 4 piece of lumber to create clearance for a catch-tray for the oil, a couple shop cloths tie strapped to the wrist.  I cut a wedge of maple to insert under the heel, marking it before I started to see where I started out, and how much deflection I had added when done.
When the oil was hot, I used a stainless steel ladle to pour the hot oil onto the cloth wrap, allowing to to flow into the pan beneath, and then returned the oil to the pot on a regular basis.  I kept up with this procedure until I could easily push the wedge further under the heel, and continued until I went past the spot where I wanted to end up, because the wood will want to straighten back out some when it is cold.
When the wood had cooled, I removed the wedge, the pan, and the cloth wrap.  the oil finish on the stock was not altered in any way, much to my surprise.  On bare wood, you will need to de-grease, so that stain and finish may be applied. Acetone (wear rubber gloves) will work, as will Trisodium Phosphate (TSP).  Both are hard on skin, and acetone causes cancer, so protect yourself.

Today is October 2nd, 2020, and I have tried to replace the pirated photos, but have been unsuccessful.  I managed to delete the Photobucket iamges and tried to use the "add image to post' link, but it refused to open for me.  Sorry.















Final result...

[DaveP (UK)]

Stumbled over this a while back  

An elderly English gunsmith bending a shotgun stock to change the cast.
I don't know enough to be able to judge the quality of the content. I'll just observe that if it were me I'd be wanting to do considerable practice before starting on anything I cared about!

[jerrywh]

Here are some photos of myself and my friend John Crockett bending a thompson center renegade.
 We gave this stock an extra 1 1/2" of drop and 3/8" of cast off. I also shortened the pull to 13 1/2".
This made a real shooter out of this junker.
 John is a direct decendant of Davy Crockett.
 PS. there is a thumb screw under the butt portion of the gig to regulate the drop.

http://jwh-flintlocks.net/bending1.jpg
http://jwh-flintlocks.net/bending2.jpg
http://jwh-flintlocks.net/bending3.jpg
http://jwh-flintlocks.net/bending4.jpg

[Daniel]

In order to take excessive drop from a stock what is the process?
Do it all in reverse ?
I have a piece that has way too much drop.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It is not as simple as just bending the stock.  The architecture of a longrifle is such that the butt stock starts to drop right in the trigger area.  This is adjacent to the lock, and you don't want to change either the trigger or lock inlet at all.  If you simply bend the wrist behind the lock - up - you'll get a 'fish belly' stock.  Functional - yes.  Aesthetically pleasing - NO!

[Curtis]

Lots of great info here, thanks to all who contributed.  I like the heatgun a lot better than the propane torch!

Curtis

[Daniel]

Understood on the fish belly. Early guns ok but not late. How much drop is too much?
I'll have to measure mine, but it has a lot. A little hard to shoulder , but still shootable.
When I ever can get out and shoot.

[b bogart]

I suspect that adjusting cast off (on) could be done in approximately the same manner?

[Daniel]

My gun has a 5" drop from top of barrel
to point on butt plate.  Guess it's a little
hard to shoulder cause I'm so used to early
smooth bores. 1690 to 1720s  

[jerrywh]

On the thompson renegade I had to lengthen the tang lengthen the inlet for the tg. and bend the tg some to the side. The reason I use the fixture in the photo is so that I can control where the bend takes place. I had it fixed so that the lock panel would not deform. Ths process takes some serious thought. It's not for pot heads.

[David Rase]

Here are a few photos of my Tulle stock bending setup.  I added drop and cast off.  The cast off was fairly easy to add but the drop was a bit harder due to the stock being slab sawn.  I used the hot oil method since the stock was finished.  My stock was a cheek cracker before bending just like Taylors.  I used 4 x4's, 2 x 4's lag screwed to a bench made from 2 layers of 3/4" plywood.  In less than a hour and a half, I had added drop and cast off.  I left the stock to cool in the fixture over night before moving.  I have seen no evidence of the stock moving since bending.
David 

[dlbarr]

I have no pictures to share but will attempt to portray what a friend of mine has done. I have not done this myself but have seen the process.

He has a collar that fits around the wrist; this collar has a fitting to accept a common garden hose. He heats a large can of water on a burner; a large funnel is used as a lid over the can with, you guessed it, a short piece of garden hose running from funnel to wrist collar. The stock is clamped to the bench top; a wire suspended from a screw in the butt plate and holds a 10 lb weight off the floor at whatever height corresponds to the amount of drop/cast off he desires. As the moist heat from the water tank makes the wrist pliable, the weight drops to the floor, he then allows it to cool off.

Having not been around gun building all that much, I had never seen the oil method used. It seems the hot oil would be more conducive to a stronger stock when it's all said & done. However, his way seemed to work well on the build he was working on and the rifle looked terrific when it was complete. Interesting to see how you craftsmen do this.

[snapper]

David

Thanks for sharing your setup.  I have a old English shotgun that needs some cast, and it is on my list to do sometime soon.  Is it required to have a margarita when doing this?

Fleener

[b bogart]

Dave I see that candy thermometer, what temp do you shoot for??

[Jerry V Lape]

What a timely discussion for me!  I am currently putting together a bending rig for a longrifle which needs the toe of the butt twisted to the right.  The stock decided to screw itself off to the left as it adjusted to the lack of humidity in Arizona.  Needs about 3/8" adjustment at the toe, part of which is cast off.  Should work but it is hard curly maple. 

What is the temperature at which movement should become possible?  Must be less than steam temp or steam bending wouldn't work. 

[d-a]

What a timely discussion for me!  I am currently putting together a bending rig for a longrifle which needs the toe of the butt twisted to the right.  The stock decided to screw itself off to the left as it adjusted to the lack of humidity in Arizona.  Needs about 3/8" adjustment at the toe, part of which is cast off.  Should work but it is hard curly maple. 

What is the temperature at which movement should become possible?  Must be less than steam temp or steam bending wouldn't work. 

The few times in my reasearching I've seen steam mentioned being used over the oil, they were using a pressure cooker to generate the steam. Supposedly it will get the steam hotter. Only mention I have seen of a tempature used was 350 degrees. The guy said once the wood reached 350 degrees the stock would bend like a wet noodle.

Now one thing I've learned from the internet is to that you can't believe everything.

Doug

[d-a]

Thanks to all that have replied and posted pictures. It's been a great help. Hopefully I will have added cast in my stock in the next week.

Doug

[David Rase]

Dave I see that candy thermometer, what temp do you shoot for??

Somewhere around 250 degrees.  Much hotter then that and you risk burning the wood.  I controlled my oil temperature by varying the heat lamp distance from the stock.
David

[jerrywh]

 I use canola oil and kept the stock around 350° for 20 minutes. 250° is hot enough. I had planed to refinish the stock anyway so I didn't worry about a little scorching of the finish. I use a infra red thermometer. Dave R knows Steve Nelson . Steve has bent very valuable shotguns without problems.
 I'm talking about $50,000.00 guns.

[Jerry V Lape]

I know they bend oak railings for bannisters in steam boxes that are not pressurized.  Steam is  212 degrees Farenheit at sea level.  If it is produced under pressure the temperature can be higher but as soon as it hits the atmosphere the heat would be released bringing it back down to 212 degree max.  The released heat could be useful hence the pressure cooker I suppose.  

Second issue is charring.  Wood sitting in a place where the temperature rises without a flame or radiant heat hitting the wood would ignite spontaneously somewhere above 450 degrees.  But the heat lamps, heat guns or the flame Jack Rowe employed in the video change all that.  Under those conditions bad things begin to happen to the wood at about 250 degrees especially at the surface.  So heating the wood to 350 degrees has to be wrong thing.  I don't know how the oil works with this but the ignition point of canola is 432 degrees - but it has a flame point of 379 so heating it much above 350 is a danger zone.  

Very informative thread.  I will have to see what happens with a steam bend as I am not going to be putting oil on a raw stock since I want to be able to stain it afterward.  I have a couple piece of same wood to experiment on before I go to the stock in question.  

[Jerry V Lape]

Jerrywh, did you mean to state two different temps in your last post?  I am confused (not uncommon for me). 

[jerrywh]

I heated it continuously to 350 ° some times even a little hotter. I backed off when the oil started to smoke. We never did catch it on fire. It never did char the wood but the finish showed bubbling when we unwrapped it. Steam will raise the grain a lot but the oil doesn't seem to do that much. Jack Rowe gets his hot enough to catch fire at times. I am real scared of fire. I think the only thing the oil does is hold the heat. Be sure to use cotton string to tie the rags and don't use polyester rags. My stock had a very thick wrist but it bent like a noodle when hot.

[David Rase]

I went back through my notes to verify what temperature I heated the oil to.  You are right, I heated the oil to about 325 degrees.  I originally thought it was 325 but then thought, that is how hot I heat the oil for horn, not wood.  I seen that the thermometer in the picture was between 250 and 275 degrees so I thought that must be the temperature.  That was what the temperature dropped to while I was taking the picture.  Thanks for the feed back Jerry, and yes, Steve Nelson only works on the very best.
David

[David R. Pennington]

I have a boys rifle I did a while back that needs more drop. How about wild cherry? How does it respond to bending?