Author Topic: Advice on a vise  (Read 11143 times)

Offline smart dog

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Advice on a vise
« on: February 27, 2014, 01:49:31 AM »
Hi Folks,
I need to purchase a basic machinist vise for breeching and unbreeching barrels and other metal work.  I have an excellent Versa Vise, which is fine for many tasks but I need a heavier duty vise that is bolted to my bench.  I would appreciate insight and advice.  I would like to limit the cost to <$300 but if that is not wise or possible, please let me know.  I think I would like one that rotates horizontally but I am not sure. I appreciate any help.

dave
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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 01:55:59 AM »
I got one of those sold at Lowes back 7 years ago and have been using it for just about every purpose since then. Still going strong.
Psalms 144

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 02:05:37 AM »
I use a 4.5" Craftsman mechanics vise for that purpose.   I have had it many years.   I am pretty sure it cost less than $50 when I bought it.   Actually, I really think it cost $25.  Of course, a bigger, nicer vise costing several times more would also work.   If I had to buy another one for some reason,  I would just go up to Lowes and buy a 6" Bessey bench vise.   They cost $72.    Of course they also sell a Yost vise for $900.   I am sure the $900 vise would also work. ;D    Frankly,  I would like to know what someone would be doing with a vise to require one that cost $900.  

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 02:45:03 AM »
For working with breech plugs, my preference is for something pretty big, mounted to a heavy bench.  The one I use most, doesn't have a swivel base and I don't really miss it.  I just scanned ebay and saw some good sized, heavy vises.   Maybe you could find a deal there.   A smaller more versatile vise with a swivel base would probably be more useful for general metal work.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 02:48:59 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline David Rase

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 03:03:46 AM »
I am in agreement with Jim.  There are a lot of old vises out there that with a bit of TLC can be put back into service and will probably outlast most of their contemporary counterparts.  Case in point, I just bought a 1926 Prentiss vise.  An afternoon with a wire wheel, some penetrating oil, small hammer and a couple of wrenches and I have a vise that will probably last another 80+ years.


borderdogs

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 03:29:56 AM »
Dave,
Nice set of soft jaws on that old vise.
Rob

Offline Artificer

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 07:38:26 AM »
I was lucky to get a large 74 lb, 4 1/2" Jaw  Rock Island No. 574 swivel base vise for $ 25.00 in the early 90's because it was missing the swivel base tightening arm.  I made one out of a long bolt and nut for a few bucks.  I traded some work with a machinist who precision ground the removable jaws smooth for me.

Rock Island is not a brand known as widely as say a Wilton vise, but for most of us, they made vises that were more than tough enough.  These vises go for between $ 200.00 to $ 250.00 on Ebay, but you can normally find them much, MUCH cheaper in farm sales, estate sales, auctions, etc. because many people don't want a vise that big.

Even though it has a swivel base, I have never been able to overpower the swivel tightening when loosening the toughest/rusted on M1 barrels.  Tightening up a breech plug is nothing compared to that.

Gus

Online Blacksmoke

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 08:17:03 AM »
Hi Dave,  I also agree with Jim - when I set up my new shop in 2005 I went on E-bay and found a large swivel base vise which had been used in a US Navy ship yard. It weighs about a hundred lbs. and I only paid $ 200 for it. Stay away from anything made in that far away place that begins with the letter "C", they do not last especially when put to use!  Hugh Toenjes
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Frenchy

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 09:07:42 AM »
Dave,
That is an awesome vise! Swivel base and swivel jaw. I'm jealous!

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 03:22:17 PM »
I should probably mention that I have to use lead jaw liners in that small vise to properly grip a barrel for removing or installing a breech plug.    I would certainly prefer a heavier vise,  but as what I have works,  the expenditure is not necessary. 

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 03:30:27 PM »
I use an antique blacksmith's post or leg vice with soft jaws made from annealed copper tubing.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 03:30:56 PM »
I bought two fairly heavy vises at a flea market,new ones for $35 each and still have them.
My vise I use daily is a Polish made precision 4"with a gib adjustable dovetailed slide. The REAR jaw on
this one is the moveable one.I bought this from MSC in 1976 for $25 which included $5 for UPS from New York City.

Bob Roller

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2014, 03:36:27 PM »
I agree that you should be able to find a good used vise for relatively little $. I attempted to remove my breech plug witha 4" swivel base Wilton and a 10" wrench and it wouldn't budge. I put the barrel in a 7" post vise and used an 18" stillson wrench and it came out easily. It does make a difference.
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2014, 03:55:28 PM »
To expand on what Nordnecker said about vises and wrenches,  I use a 12" adjustable wrench with the jaws ground at an angel to better fit a breech plug.    The barrel must be clamped very tightly in the vise using sheets of lead (from Brownells) wrapped around the jaws; the threaded portion of the barrel sticking out beyond the jaws of the vise. I then need to use all my 365 pounds to break the plug loose and tighten it to its final position.   My 196 pound brother would probably need another solution.   This is all in a spirit of full disclosure.  All the factors mentioned go into what works and what doesn't.

Offline heinz

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2014, 04:16:47 PM »
Using a great deal of force to remove an old breech plug may be necessary.  Using excessive force to seat a new breech plug is a dangerous practice.  It should not take more than 300 ft pounds of torque to seat a properly machined breech plug; one hundred ft lbs is more appropriate.
kind regards, heinz

Offline iloco

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2014, 04:52:44 PM »
smartdog I may have what you want.  I bought a lot of stuff from an estate and a Like new Old swivel rotating Sawyer vise was part of it.
 I have a guy interested in it localy but the deal may fall through.
I will put it in the for sale or PM you if the local guy decides he doesn't need it.
 This vise would cost a lot to ship becasuse of its weight.  It will weight around 60-75 pounds.
A local pickup would proably be best way to get the vise.   I can send pictures once I see that the local guy is not interested.  The price is just a tad more than what you have listed.
 Will see what happens and go from there.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 04:53:26 PM by iloco »
iloco

westbj2

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2014, 06:00:30 PM »
If you want to buy a vise that is a lifetime tool, it is hard to beat a Wilton 'bullet' vise.  I have a 4 1/2" bullet that is 25 years old still in perfect alignment and closes securely with two finger pressure.  I have ground the jaw inserts a couple of times and replaced them once
Here is what a new one looks like.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-WILTON-USA-Model-450-Machinists-VISE-4-1-2-JAWS-c-w-Swivel-Base-1336-List-/390571695835?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item5aefe31edb
and here is a used one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILTON-VISE-450S-4-1-2-JAWS-72-LBS-NEW-JAWS-MADE-2-78-CLEAN-/151235065084?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item23364ff4fc
You should be able to buy one of these in good shape for the $$$ you allocated.
Note: The tradesman series by Wilton is an economy version of the bullet vise and comes with pipe jaws below the regular faces.
Jim
Jim

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2014, 09:03:06 PM »
Don't worry,  I have never applied my full weight to installing or removing a breech plug,  particularly installing; but it does help.   My brother usually needs some sort of extender where I can get the same bolt or screw out without the extender.   As far as I know,  that is the ONLY advantage of my weight which is a general negative.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2014, 09:54:26 PM »
Using a great deal of force to remove an old breech plug may be necessary.  Using excessive force to seat a new breech plug is a dangerous practice.  It should not take more than 300 ft pounds of torque to seat a properly machined breech plug; one hundred ft lbs is more appropriate.

Please understand I'm not trying to nitpick you, but 300 ft lbs is way, WAY too much torque.  One is asking to twist breech plugs like a petzel if that much force is applied.  100 ft lbs would be PLENTY of torque.  Perhaps this is what you meant?
Gus

Offline David Rase

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 10:29:07 PM »
I have never used a torque wrench on a breech plug, I only tighten up to "snug".  If I were to guess, I would say I am using somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 ftlbs.
David

DaveP (UK)

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2014, 10:47:09 PM »
I have never used a torque wrench on a breech plug, I only tighten up to "snug".  If I were to guess, I would say I am using somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 ftlbs.
David

Phew! I was beginning to wonder if I had missed something, and also wonder if the Victorian pistol barrel I am using for my practice piece was safe to use. Finger tight takes it to where the original registration marks are not much more than an eighth apart. It was proofed like that, so it should be fine, but all the same...  ;D

Could I ask, What sort of torque could I expect to encounter if I purchased a barrel with plug fitted?

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2014, 02:01:37 AM »
I got a Columbian 3 inch machinist vice on the left side of my bench and a Reed Machinist 3 inch vice on the right side. The bench is bolted to the floor and wall and is 4 feet long. The front jaw slide is square on both vices, which helps somewhat when making a filing setup. I use the right hand as a prop, with a piece of wood clamped in the jaws  to prop up long barrels or stocks. Both vices have bronze inserts on the jaws and also have steel inserts for them, not a mark on the top jaws on either vice. I use a milling machine to take of metal sometimes, but a 14 inch file and a good vice sometimes works better. The blacksmith shop has a large 5 inch post vice and a old red Craftsman 3 1/2 vice. I grew up with this little 3 1/2 red vice and some half wore out files making guns.

Offline heinz

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2014, 03:04:11 AM »
Like Mr Rase, I have never used a torque wrench on a breech plug. And i further realize Mark Elliot may have been using a bit of hyperbole. But, the newer people out there need to be aware that using a great deal of force to seat a breech plug can be dangerous and probably indicates the plug is not fitted correctly. The end of the plug needs to seal against the bottom of the breech hole at the same time the shoulder of the tang snugs against the back of the barrel
kind regards, heinz

Offline Artificer

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2014, 10:44:50 AM »
I have never used a torque wrench on a breech plug, I only tighten up to "snug".  If I were to guess, I would say I am using somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 ftlbs.
David

Phew! I was beginning to wonder if I had missed something, and also wonder if the Victorian pistol barrel I am using for my practice piece was safe to use. Finger tight takes it to where the original registration marks are not much more than an eighth apart. It was proofed like that, so it should be fine, but all the same...  ;D

Could I ask, What sort of torque could I expect to encounter if I purchased a barrel with plug fitted?

DaveP,

I hope I will be forgiven for giving modern gun torque limits, but I think it will give us some perspective that many people can identify with – even for black powder guns.

I spent a career using torque wrenches to tighten Gas Plugs on NM M14’s and Gas Cylinder Lock Screws on NM M1 Garands as well as tightening barrels on M1903, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14 and M16’s and AR 15’s and 10’s.  So I have a lot of experience what the torque pressure “feels like” from 20 ft lbs to as much as 120 ft lbs (and rarely more) when barrels were torqued on TOO tight. The US AMU used 150 inch pounds ( about 12 ½ foot pounds) to 15 ft lbs to torque on M14 Gas Plugs while we Marines used 23 ft lbs.  M16’s/AR 15 barrels are torqued from a minimum of 30 ft lbs to 80 ft lbs, though I have seen a LOT of AR15 barrels over torqued beyond that.  M1 Garand and M14 Barrels go from 40 -80 ft lbs. as do M1903’s.   WWI British Enfield Barrels were often tightened much more than M1903’s and so much you have to be VERY careful you don’t twist the action out of shape when removing the barrels. 

HOWEVER, as a young Sergeant and NM Armorer in the early 70’s, I often witnessed one bolt action rifle shooter who came to most of our matches and he swapped his barrel for a different one when going from the 300 yard line to the 600 yard line.  That barrel indexed no more than about 10 degrees from top dead center and he was only using maybe 15 to at most 20 foot pounds of torque when tightening up that barrel.  That rifle was in Winchester .308 caliber and he OFTEN won with that rifle so torqued.  IOW, you don’t need as much torque to hold on a standard barrel as you do for a gas operated one.

I have pulled maybe four or five dozen original Rifle Musket barrel tangs over the years.   When you discount the ones that were rusted in place, I imagine the torque on those tangs were from 50 to 60 foot pounds originally, though some few went up to 80 or so foot pounds.   However, we have to remember these rifles fired very heavy .58 caliber Minie Balls and were also probably torqued a little more than necessary to ensure they would not come loose in Military Service.

Before we lost Gary Brumfeld, he mentioned in one post years ago that original barrel tangs on Long Rifles were not torqued near as much as many modern rifles and that includes modern black powder rifles where factories apply more torque than needed for liability concerns.   I have only pulled maybe a dozen or slightly more original civilian rifle and pistol barrel tangs, but the torque applied to them was in line with what Gary mentioned.   In the rifle tangs I pulled, they probably averaged around 30 – 40 foot lbs at most and pistol barrels went around 25-35 foot lbs.  though one or two were less than that.

Heinz is absolutely correct in his statement in the above post that “The end of the plug needs to seal against the bottom of the breech hole at the same time the shoulder of the tang snugs against the back of the barrel.”  This is much more important than a great deal of torque applied to the barrel tang and especially for a single shot muzzle loading pistol barrel.
 
So on a factory built rifle or pistol, you are probably going to see a greater torque setting than what you may find from some custom builders.

Finally, from the few original British Flint pistols I have worked on and many more that others have worked on, they had a tendency to seem very light as to the torque necessary to tighten the breech plugs.  So unless you are getting a gas leak or some other problem, I don’t believe you have a problem as long as the breech plug and tang fit correctly. 

 
Gus

DaveP (UK)

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Re: Advice on a vise
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2014, 01:01:51 PM »
I understand the way a breech plug should fit - its one of the reasons I'm planning to buy in the service. First time round at any rate  ;D
It is reassuring to read that massive torque is not essential for a new barrel. Its obviously still essential to hold things with care, but my existing equipment might actually cope.
One point that has been nagging for a while is the caution on TOW about removing a breech plug once fitted. Makes it sound as if it's going to be seriously tight. I've just taken the time to read down to the bottom of the page and it appears that their own standard is one hand and a small wrench. Sounds good to me!

I'm glad I didn't have to fit a plug to the pistol barrel. Its cast, and the snail means its orientation has to be just so. Only one chance to get that plug right! Inletting it gave me enough to think about...