Author Topic: Musket accuracy  (Read 5992 times)

Offline Standing Bear

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Musket accuracy
« on: February 27, 2014, 06:24:41 PM »
 ;D Musket accuracy?  Have heard that this is an oxymoron  ;D but I am kind of stubborn.

Match requires a minie ball. I have a Parker Hale two band that I haven't shot in 20+ years. Before I wind up w a half dozen molds I don't use and burn a LOT of powder and lead would like input on what works for you bullet, powder, lube, wad if any and what gun it is used in.

Mostly talking about 50 yds  here
Thx
TC
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wet willy

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 07:59:40 PM »
(If this is a made-in-England Parker Hale, you've got a real gem!)

My advice: use pure lead for the Minie, and don't try to push them hard.

Pure lead will obturate properly and engage the rifling, an alloy with tin will make a harder bullet that will not spin properly. No wheel weights.

50 - 60 grs 2Fg works fine, especially at 50 yards. Some have sucess with as little as 40 grs, but this load seems on the edge of unstability.

The Lyman mold 577611 has a thick skirt and does not work well for me. The RCBS 58-500-M works well, as does the Lee 581-482M. The Lee is a wadcutter design, so if you are required to use a traditional Minie with a pointed nose, this might not work. FWIW, Lee calls this wadcutter a "Minie."

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 08:16:28 PM »
;D Musket accuracy?  Have heard that this is an oxymoron  ;D but I am kind of stubborn.

Match requires a minie ball. I have a Parker Hale two band that I haven't shot in 20+ years. Before I wind up w a half dozen molds I don't use and burn a LOT of powder and lead would like input on what works for you bullet, powder, lube, wad if any and what gun it is used in.

Mostly talking about 50 yds  here
Thx
TC

Rifle Musket and Musket are very different firearms.

I would try the traditional minie and 50 grains of FF, 1.5F or  F for starters. Might do well with less.

Unless you want a wad cutter design of some kind that is.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 08:34:45 PM »
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.  Yes this is a rifled musket.  3 groove shallow.
Thx
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 09:14:25 PM »
After spending about 26 Spring and Fall NSSA National Championships working UnCivil War Period guns, the one thing that most folks outside that shooting don't know about to get the guns to shoot best is using a sizing die to size the minie' bullets to the bore.  Normally the best accuracy comes from a ball sized just .001" below the actual bore size as measured with at least precision dial calipers, though a small percentage like them .002" less. 

Next, I most strongly recommend RWS/Dynamit Nobel musket caps. 

Next, I most strongly recommend an Ampco (Brass or Bronze alloy) nipple.

Many folks shoot about 50 grains of 2FFG, but some folks have gone as low as 30-32 grains to get the best accuracy and especially with the correctly sized balls.

I can't even begin to write how many types of lubricant, both commercial and home made, I've heard were the "Best' over the years.  I'm not sure if makes as much difference what kind of lube is used as how uniformly it is applied.
Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 09:39:54 PM »
OOPS, sorry, forgot to mention something that is very important for the best accuracy in a Rifled Musket and that's the trigger pull.  Original Enfields averaged 8 to 10 lbs and original Springfields averaged 10-12 lbs and those figures come from actually weighing many originals over the years.  

NSSA rules allow for trigger pulls on muskets to go as low as being able to hold 3 1/2 lbs without the sear releasing the tumbler.. BUT unless you have an original rifle, I would not go that low  I liked to set them up at 4 to 4 1/2 lbs and they would stay that way for a long time in a lock with original or authentic English Made Parker Hale locks (not the ones later marked Parker Hale, but actually made in Italy).  

I ALSO STRONGLY recommend AGAINST cutting down the full cock notch to reduce trigger pull.  You get into ALL sorts of problems that way and especially with the nose of the sear hitting the half cock notch and damaging the sear nose or half cock or both.  (Yes, you must ensure the half cock notch clears, so it is not unusual to have to take a LITTLE off the notch so the sear clears it.)  

To safely and somewhat easily reduce trigger pull, the best thing to do is SOFT solder brass shim stock between .012' and maybe as much as .020" (on some tumblers) on the rounded portion of the tumbler above the full cock notch.  (I used more .015" brass shim stock than anything else)  What that does is keep down the sear from riding as high on the tumbler and reduces sear engagement.  Bend the shim stock to fit the curvature of the tumbler as close as you can.  Tin the solder on the shim stock before you soft solder it on the tumbler with NON LEAD soft plumber's solder.  If the trigger pull is a little light, you can file the shim stock a bit or use a thinner piece of shim stock.  

Finally, one huge mistake I've seen especially .22 cal. small bore rifle shooters do with a rifled musket is "get off" the trigger too fast.  Some PRB shooters do it as well if they are used to using a lock with a tumbler fly.  You must "follow through" with the trigger pull until the ball goes through the target."  Otherwise, releasing pressure too early can cause the sear to bash the half cock in these big locks.
Gus
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 09:59:33 PM by Artificer »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 09:44:45 PM »
 I agree with those that recommend the pure lead, and thick skirted minis. Both will increase accuracy. Don't overcharge the piece, more is not necessarily better, when it comes to powder in a rifled musket. Sizing dies are kind of tricky to buy, if your not sure what size you need, but make a ton of difference.  I used SPG bullet lube on mine, and liked it.
 In the distant past I shot in a paper cartridge match, that required all rounds be pre-made. I didn't have a thick skirted bullet mold at that time, only a thin skirted Lee mold. An old timer on my team, told me to thumb press a .451 round ball into the recess of my thin skirted mini, and then roll it into a paper cartridge. It improved the accuracy, but generated a lot more recoil.

                       Hungry Horse

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 10:29:40 PM »
Quote
Match requires a minie ball. I have a Parker Hale two band that I haven't shot in 20+ years. Before I wind up w a half dozen molds I don't use

I suggest that you get in touch with my friend George, who is now providing musket molds, as well as sizers.  Best accuracy is achieved with the correct mold and sizer to fit the bullet to your gun.  He will ask you to provide certain measurements to ensure you get the right one for YOUR gun.

http://oldfoxtraders.com/TnMolds/

Dave Kanger

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Online Daryl

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 09:14:12 PM »
Quote

I suggest that you get in touch with my friend George, who is now providing musket molds, as well as sizers.  Best accuracy is achieved with the correct mold and sizer to fit the bullet to your gun.  He will ask you to provide certain measurements to ensure you get the right one for YOUR gun.

http://oldfoxtraders.com/TnMolds/



Good point, Dave.  Properly sized bullets will go a long way to provide the best accuracy in any rifle.

Local BC man, a 3 band Enfield shooter uses a sized PH mould - the 560gr. version, with 85gr. 2F GOEX for all  his shooting. He does amazingly well with that rifle, even in the BP ctg. matches out to 750yards at the Rendezvous BC shoot.  It is possible the faster twist in the 2 band rifle and the Musketoon might do well with less powder.
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 04:43:58 AM »
Hi Gus

I don't know if they release it too early as you say or have extreme control. i used to fix SA Colts and other stuff for a well known country western singer and he had far better trigger finger control than the average bear and things that I thought were perfect he would stop the trigger right at the break and bash the sear on guns that worked perfect for me. So I rewelded etc etc. Darned customers anyway. Perhaps he was dropping it back into the 1/2 cock. Gooda guess as any.

Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 10:53:59 AM »
Hi Dan,

I have run across a very few shooters who had such good trigger control, they stopped pulling once the sear released the hammer.  So, yes, that could be the case in a small percentage of shooters.  What you are saying, in my experience, was more common with Pistol Shooters and we had a very few shooters like that on The Marine Corps Pistol Team over the years.  A very few of them had such good trigger control they could actually stop the trigger pull during the break and delay until they felt they were back in the center of the bullseye.  WOW where they tough to build a trigger for! Grin.  So I have sympathy with what you went through on SA Colts.  Of course as you know, there is no fly on the hammer of a SA Colt to keep the trigger/sear from hitting or going into the half cock notch. 

I was never a .22 Rimfire Rifle Collegiate Shooter, nor what we called an International Shooter on The Big Teams in the Corps.  However, the International Shooters told me that they (like Collegiate .22 shooters) were trained to release the trigger right after it broke, so as not to throw off the rifle or pistol as might be caused by continuing to pull the trigger.  It was especially important with the Hammerli International Bolt Action Pistols as they had a trigger pull so light, the force of gravity set them off when they were raised to or just above 45 degrees. 

The other thing about musket locks is even the original ones were a little looser in tolerances than good civilian locks.  The repro locks often are even looser than that.  So sometimes when one thinks there is clearance between the sear tip and the half cock, the half cock hits the sear tip as it goes by.  This is extremely frustrating on Smith Carbine trigger jobs as it is so difficult to judge how close the trigger/sear and tumbler are when the action is not assembled.  On muskets, one can put the tumbler in a bare lock plate with the bridle and screw plus the sear and screw and hold the sear in place just as it clears the tumbler.  Then by slowly turning the tumbler, you can see if the half cock notch hits the sear face.  I found it was normal to ensure the sear cleared the notch by a little more than just not hitting as the tumbler went past, though, because of the looseness of the tolerances.  So if one did not use a normal trigger pull with good follow through that will pull the sear face further back out of the way, it lessened the chances of the sear hitting the half cock notch.  Of course, if the shooter released the trigger pull just after it broke, it would almost certainly allow the sear face to bash into the half cock notch.   

Another thing that I found common on the cheaper repro locks was the wood clearance for the sear bar was often not enough and the wood kept the sear from being pulled away from the tumbler enough.  So I always checked for that and cleared that first. 

Working all those NSSA military locks really helped me to work on Flintlock Military Locks, as the internals worked the same way and were also a little looser than civilian locks.  However one Brown Bess Musket owned by a member of my reenactment unit about drove me nuts.  After working on the lock and ensuring the sear bar did not hit the wood, it STILL occasionally allowed the sear to hit the half cock notch.  I have to sheepishly admit it took me about 45 minutes to figure out the trigger was hitting the trigger guard at times and not allowing the trigger to go far enough to the rear to push the sear face out of the way of the half cock notch.  WOW, did I feel silly for not realizing it sooner.  After I cleared the bottom of the trigger, the problem was completely solved.

Gus

Offline heelerau

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 04:05:27 PM »
Standing Bear,
                     I have had the same rifle as yourself, the PH Navy Rifle since 1977,  I use a Minnie which is bore size, not grove size, and 2 1/2 drams of Goex FFg,  lubed with 5 to 1 beeswax to unsalted beef lard by volume.   I can regularly shoot 98 from the bench at 5o yards onto a 50 yard pistol target, 13 shots, 10 to score.  If you use a lee mine, 575 siam use only 55 grains of FFg, get the tights minnie you can get, if you want a mould made up , I have a mate in South Australia who can make one to you specs, so pm me if you cannot get one locally made. These rifles if bedded will chew out the 10 ring out to 100 yds regularly, the trick is to have a bullet that is a slip fit, and a reasonably heavy skirt so it does not blow out.
 As a kid with this rifle I started out with a lee .575 and regularly shot 70 tp 80  at 50 yds, then I got a parker hale mould and it shot out to  85 regularly  had it lapped and occasionally got a low 90. Had my late mate Trevor Bugg make a mould, I think .578 siam with a  fairly deep base cavity and reasonably thick skirt, now shoot out to high 90 s regularly if my eyes are up to it on the day, the better the fit the more consistent the group.

Cheers

Gordon
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 04:06:17 PM by heelerau »
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Musket accuracy
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 06:22:07 PM »
Learning a lot from y'all and appreciate the help.  Got some 60 minies cast last night that have a thick skirt and what appears to me to be a deep deep base.  Ogive is cut off abruptly to give a kind of semi wad cutter appearance.  No experience with bullets from this mold but it was a free Lyman mold.  Will measure and weigh them today.

Thanks to all for the time and sharing of experience.
TC

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