Author Topic: falling to peer presure  (Read 12007 times)

Stink Pole

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falling to peer presure
« on: February 28, 2014, 06:22:37 AM »
Well you guys have pushed me into it. I've been stalking this site for some time now and have finally decided to take the plunge. I have ordered the fixins to make a Hawken fullstock. I have build several modern bolt guns over the years so figured the natural progression is to get back to the roots of the sport. I am really hoping that when the need arises I will be able to call upon a few of you here to help complete the task by answering the inevitable questions that will arise. I think I have the rite place.
I can tell that the topic of hawkens is a hotly contested topic around these parts. While I am awaiting my parts I have read darn near every topic that has the name Hawken associated with it. I have found so much information that its a bit overwelming.

My first question for you all is how close in the architectural aspect are the plans for the fullstock from TOW? I am seeing some areas that look to be way to slim. Are they really that petite in the forend and the wrist of the stock? 
Thanks, Jason

Micah2

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 06:50:01 AM »
Yes they are slim.  Handle or view originals and that will be something most have in common.  The fore stock on a fine rifle is crazy slim.  Makes you hold your breath when you see it without a barrel in it. 
And then to think there is a hole lengthwise just fractions below it for the ramrod....
You can do it.  And yes, there are people here to help you.  Search the threads , there is months worth of reading on this site. 

Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2014, 07:13:09 AM »
Reading everything I can find. I have already found several things that will be modified on my component selection. Also noticed that on the plans there is no belly in the forestock or is thAt just a feature on the halfstock? Not sure but will keep looking.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 08:56:22 AM »
SP...the architecture of a fullstocked Hawken rifle is more like the longrifles you may be used to than the half-stocked version.  For one thing, you probably won't be going with a 1 1/8" barrel - likely 1".  Most folks these days cannot handle the mass of a traditional Hawken.  Even so, the forearm comes to almost a knife edge along the barrel channel, and is ovoid in section from the lock to the entry pipe.  It does not have flat sides on it, so watch out for that - a common mistake with some builders.  You may have up to a 1/4" web between the barrel and the rod hole, and that coupled with a minimum 3/8" rod hole, plus the necessary wood beneath the hole, gives quite a robust forearm. , More so in the half stocked version.  You are right...far as I know, the forearm on the fullstocked rifle does not have a belly.  It is not concave either.  Better to have it a little plump than the converse.  Don Stith (valued contributor here) has a web site featuring many styles of Hawken rifle and it would be good for you to peruse them.  I cannot speak to the authenticity of the TOW plans, never having seen them.  But I've studied every piece of information that is public, and hope I have somewhat of a grasp of what makes the rifle, and what does not.  You should do the same.  It's a great journey. 
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

eddillon

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 09:51:41 AM »
What timing!    :'( Just happened to be doing a full stock  J&S as we speak.  Had to stop tonight, inletting the forward thimble in a walnut blank.  Tapped too hard on the thimble for the splintery walnut.  Split it down the thin web between barrel channel and the ramrod groove.  About 9 inches if split.  It is now in my wood vise with walnut stained accra-glas gel.  have a 9 inch piece of cut off 1"barrel in the channel so that I glue it right.  All the time I was inletting that thimble I was thinking about "what does the full stock hawken look like" in front of the first thimble and what kind of muzzle cap should it have?  Now that I have time to find out, what does it look like?  Any photos or drawings would help.  I have Don Stith's plan on order from MBS.  I am of the impression that the full stock is a slimmer rifle than the half stock.  Suggestions surely would help stink pole and me.  I have built 7 Hawkens from a blank but they all have been half stocks.  This is my first J&S full stock.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 05:23:53 PM by Tim Crosby »

eddillon

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2014, 09:57:22 AM »
Stink Pole, I think that we both will get the information that each of us needs to complete what we have started.  The ALR guys are a great bunch willing to share their experiences and knowledge.  This forum is "the' place.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 03:47:49 PM »
I am curious where MLB is getting their blueprints. It has been over 8 years since they bought a set from me.
 I am stil waiting to find an original half stock with a pregnant forearm. I know what the House video says.  My question to the producer of the video was " did you lay a straight edge on the ones in the collection you viewed"

galamb

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 01:28:28 AM »
Guys, if you are looking for some pics of a Fullstock you might want to try this link to the Cody Museum.

They have a J&S Full-stock (maybe half dozen different angles) and you can zoom it to some degree.

Here's the link http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=32976

There is no details as to barrel length, caliber etc, but you could make some guesses and scale the pics to give you something to work with.

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 02:42:28 AM »
A great pic of the muzzle that shows the knife edge forestock that Taylor suggested is in the link provided by Graham.

Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2014, 03:01:34 AM »
Thanks for the info guys. I've been chomping the bit waiting for the ups man to come up the lane. I called to check on the status of my stuff today and was told the barrels are on back order. JUST GREAT. They said they have been waiting six months for a delivery of 54 calibers. Is that normal to wait that? If so that's crazy. Maybe I will have to get planning my nez

Dew

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2014, 05:09:04 AM »
Seen this tread and thought I'd join the party if you all don't mind. I just recieved a J&S fullstock hawken kit from Don Stith and I am very pleased with it. Don is the man when it comes to these guns and the parts and wood are good stuff. I have been wanting one off these along time and have looked at the pictures of the one Taylor built a few years ago as my inspiration. Thats got to be one of the coolest rifles I've seen and if I can do one half as good I'll be in tall cotton. I havn't decided on which lock to get just yet but I'm trying to finish up another project before I start on that one anyway. And like the others I would also appreciate any advice or pointers you all might give.  This is a great site and although I am not a big poster I have learned alot from the folks on here. Thanks,Dew

Offline mountainman70

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2014, 05:32:45 AM »
Hey SP,in 2008 I had the same situation re the barrel being unavailable.Finally went to Pecatonica and got a barrel from them,pronto.Dont remember if it is a Greenmtn or Colerain.Both good barrels.Shop around,muzzleloader builders supply,Colerain,Pecatonicariver,Oregon Barrel co,others around.Dont let a barrel hold you up,just look around.Good luck on the build.Dave ;D

Offline whitebear

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 06:06:04 AM »
Have you tried "Track Of The Wolf" trackofthewolf.com.  I recently purchased a 42" X
15/16 X 54 caliber.  Check out there websight and see what is available.
In the beginning God...
Georgia - God's vacation spot

Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2014, 06:37:00 AM »
Mountainman,
I ordered my stuff from Pecatonica back on the 11th. Called up there today during my lunch break and spoke with one of the shop workers because everyone else was out to lunch. He told me that they have been ordered from green mnt. about six months ago and told me to call back. So when I called back later in the day I was told that they were expected last week but they never arrived and should be in early next week. Hope I'm not getting the run around. They tell me that green mountain is preoccupied with making machinegun barrels rite now for the government. Bread and butter I guess nowadays.

My bench is clean, tools laid out, chisels sharpened and plans studied many times over in order of build. I have already built it many times over in my head and have touched up a few of my dovetailing and inletting skills in order to be ready for my epic journey into the wonderful world of building.     



Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 06:43:51 AM »
Looking over those pics from the Cody museum and noticed the top of the butplate are sculpted a bit. Is that the norm for the period? Or maybe the owner taking some creative liberties with it? 

willyr

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 01:09:24 PM »
Thank you Don Stith for your comment on the "belly" on the foreend of the half stock Hawken rifles. I have had this argument many times and while I have never laid a straight edge on an original, I have on photos of many originals and have yet to find a "belly". My thinking is that it is an optical illusion created by the forward end of the trigger guard curving into the wrist before the wrist finishes curving into the foreend. Happy building y'all, love them Hawkens.
Bill

Offline Don Stith

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2014, 02:03:14 PM »
Bill
 If you get the transitions right at the entry thimble and under the lock panels it gives the illusion of a belly.
 Had a good laugh recently . A fellow saw a picture of one of mine and called to tell me he was glad to see someone finally made one with the belly,  like they should have.
  Just another example of why it is hard to build from pictures.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2014, 03:40:59 PM »

My bench is clean, tools laid out, chisels sharpened and plans studied many times over in order of build. I have already built it many times over in my head and have touched up a few of my dovetailing and inletting skills in order to be ready for my epic journey into the wonderful world of building.     




There's the first mistake. You'll get over that though.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2014, 03:51:01 PM »
Hey SP,try a colerain.Nothin wrong with them,and you may get one sooner.Dave

Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 06:33:01 PM »
Mountain, Pecatonica does have 58cal barrels in stock. I may give that some thought. How much difference is there between ballistics with the 54 and 58? Thinking that I may not mind having a bit more lead down range if I'm not loosing much velocity going with the 58. I mainly hunt whitetail and black bear here in the east.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 08:26:45 PM »
In the same sized barrel, the .58 is going to be a little lighter to carry, than the .54.  One of the best balancing/holding Hawken rifles I have ever seen, including those that I have built, was made in the early 70's by my buddy Gary Mummery from Marysville, BC.  It had a 13 1/2" LOP and a 28" x 1 1/8 parallel .54 cal barrel.  Just a peach!
I cannot make myself cut a barrel that short.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

galamb

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2014, 08:47:14 PM »
Velocity should not be a significant consideration with black powder. You are talking about a short range weapon at the best of times, so time to target is almost a non-factor and the change in trajectory is likewise not a factor like it would be shooting 300 yards with a center fire.

From the Lyman manual -

A 54 cal/32" barrel 1:60 twist shooting Goex 2F -

90 grains - 1480 fps/muzzle with 1119 ft lbs - 978 fps/100 yards with 488 ft lbs

A 58 cal/32" barrel 1:48 twist shooting Goex 2f -

90 grains - 1392 fps/muzzle with 1188 ft lbs - 968 fps/100 yards with 571 ft lbs

So with this one charge you can see that while the velocity at the muzzle is 90'ish fps less by the time it gets downrange (and many would say 100 yards is getting "out there" when hunting), the difference in velocity is down to 10 fps but the 58 has 80-some foot pounds MORE energy (17% more than the 54).

You might appreciate the extra "thump" if you have a bear with an attitude in your sights  :D

Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 02:36:01 AM »
Alass my barrrel dilema was short lived. Took a ride this morning over to Chuck Dixons place and low and behold a sporty new Green Mountain was there for the picking. Actually cost me $15 bucks less and while I was at it I had Chuck chase the breach threads with the bottoming tap. Also picked up some othere needed goods while I was there. Hopefully with this out of the way I can be building by next weekend. Going to give pecatonica a call on monday and cancel my order for the barrel. I hope they will be understanding.   

Offline mountainman70

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 03:43:40 AM »
Congrats on gettin your 'barl.and the visit to Dixon was a good thing too.I imagine Pecatonica will cancel it ok,less they already shipped itThey are reasonably prompt.Good luck.Dave ;D

Stink Pole

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Re: falling to peer presure
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 08:59:51 PM »
 >:( You guys who buy your parts have the same problems as I do? Ordered my parts over a month ago and still have'nt recieved them yet. Not much can be said for availability. As of rite now I have a barrel that I cant do much with just sitting on my bench. This is crazy...