Percussion Ignition

[Old Ford2]

How common was percussion ignition in North America in the 1820-1830 era?
Was the cap configuration the same as today?
Several times I have seen rifles stated to be of this time period, in percussion, but have my doubts as to it's provenance.
I am not considering a lock replacement, in this observation.
Thank you for any information that you may have.
I'm sure it has been asked once or twice before, I have not seen this discussion.
Fred

[JV Puleo]

Based on the research done by a colleague of mine on this very subject...
Percussion ignition was new in 1820, and very common by 1824-25. This is in the east. the research I'm basing this one pertains to Massachusetts but it is reasonable to conclude the statistics apply equally to New York and most Eastern seaboard states. Needless to say, all of the earliest caps were foreign made so it was most common nearest to the point of entry and progressively less common the further west (or rural) you went. Needless to say, flint guns continued in use for a long time but I think it is reasonable to think that making new guns in flint almost completely disappeared between 1820 and 1830.

This is a good ten years sooner than I would have guessed until I saw the research data.

As far as caps are concerned... I've used modern caps on original nipples often enough to suggest that the sizes we know them by probably developed early on and that modern caps simply continue their use. There were consistency problems but are more likely a reflection of the gradual development of mass manufacturing than intent on the part of the makers.

[oakridge]

The earliest reference I've found locally, is a newspaper ad by a gunsmith, in 1829, stating that he would "alter guns to the percussion plan". I'm in Southwest Mississippi on the Miss. River, and by 1829 we had a thriving steamboat trade with New Orleans, as well as increased trade via the upper Miss. and Ohio Rivers. I think flintlocks were still made for some years thereafter in remote parts of the "interior". That could have been from delay in obtaining the technology, and/or percussion caps, or the aversion to change.

[Dennis Glazener]

but I think it is reasonable to think that making new guns in flint almost completely disappeared between 1820 and 1830.

Possibly in some areas but I have seen many original flint southern mountain rifles that were dated in the 1840's. Probably because they didn't trust the new fangled percussion rifles.
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

According to Walter Cline and Lucian Cary,they were being made well into the 1940's and 50's.
Lucian Cary was a writer that liked guns and he wrote about them to inform and not pander to an
advertiser. He was also a friend of Harry Pope and others.
The flintlock has never died out and hopefully,never will.

Bob Roller

[jdm]

Henry Derringer had a newspaper ad in 1922 advertising his percussion  guns.

[Bob Roller]

Henry Derringer---------1922?

Bob Roller

[Steve Collward]

   In August, 1829, New York State gun maker, Stillman Jackson opened his shop in Palmyra, N.Y. (located between Rochester and Syracuse along the Erie Canal).  He ran an advertisement stating in part that "...He will keep on hand Percussion and Flint Rifles..." and "...will also keep Percussion Caps and Pills, of the best quality." He also offers "...Rifle locks altered from Flint to Percussion..."
    In a January, 1833 advertisement, Jackson continues to offer converting flint guns to percussion.
   

[jdm]

 Bob thanks. Sorry I fat fingered the keys  The date was 1822.

[vtbuck223]

I guess I am a little confused as to what is being asserted here.....wasn't the US government still contracting for some flintlocks into the early 1840's?  It's also hard to imagine that all other gun makers would be so far ahead of the government.

[Don Getz]

I think the early gunsmiths worked just like they do today, they built what the customer wanted.  Joe Long, who built guns
during the 1820 - 1860 era buillt some flintlocks.   I know of one that was dated on the bottom of the barrel, it was an original
flintlock and had 1840 on the bottom of the barrel.......Don

[Dphariss]

Based on the research done by a colleague of mine on this very subject...
Percussion ignition was new in 1820, and very common by 1824-25. This is in the east. the research I'm basing this one pertains to Massachusetts but it is reasonable to conclude the statistics apply equally to New York and most Eastern seaboard states. Needless to say, all of the earliest caps were foreign made so it was most common nearest to the point of entry and progressively less common the further west (or rural) you went. Needless to say, flint guns continued in use for a long time but I think it is reasonable to think that making new guns in flint almost completely disappeared between 1820 and 1830.

This is a good ten years sooner than I would have guessed until I saw the research data.

As far as caps are concerned... I've used modern caps on original nipples often enough to suggest that the sizes we know them by probably developed early on and that modern caps simply continue their use. There were consistency problems but are more likely a reflection of the gradual development of mass manufacturing than intent on the part of the makers.

What do you base the 1820-1830 statement on? The American Fur Company when ordering rifles from Henry in 1830-31 specifically states that "percussion locks will not do". There were high quality FL rifles being made well into the 1830s even in the east. A man who left for California in 1840 took a FL since old timers had told him the percussion system was unreliable. By 1820 the percussion system we know today was not even standardized. According to J.N. George  the English rifle did not really change from flint to percussion until about 1825 or later while the shotgun was an early convert due to the greater ease in making hits when wing shooting. Since prior to this there was no standard "percussion". Scent bottle, pellet, tube and other variations were all in use and production in 1825 England and until the current design, the copper cap was well established as best did the rifle in England change over. Production going almost overnight from flintlock "... to the fully developed percussion type." circa mid 1820s. Since many English guns are datable I think George is probably pretty close to the 20 year mark following the 1806 date for Forsyth going "public" with the percussion system. Which was the Scent Bottle lock in his case.
George states:"..The fact which gives the clue to the mystery, as well as many of the later developments in the percussion rifle, being that, as the two kinds of firearms reacted quite differently to the process of conversion, so it was as natural for the riflemaker to be suspicious of the new system, as it was for the maker of shotguns to see possibilites in it in its early stages." George goes on the state that the shotguns were not effected with ACCURACY problems to the extent the rifles were. Its possible the variations in the power of the early caps may have hurt the accuracy of the rifle while the shotguns were unaffected and in fact improved by any of the percussion systems.
I would also point out that, while there were obviously percussion rifles in the west in the 1830s there were no percussion caps shown in goods inventories (I can find on the WWW) for the Rendezvous until the very end. This does not indicate wide spread use to me. Like the experienced plainsmen the California emigrant talked to many people did not trust the percussion system. The FL actually works extremely well and is very reliable especially in dryer climates in the west.
Sources are "English Guns and Rifles" by George, "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" Worman and Garavaglia and various books on Kentucky rifles.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I think I should have said "inferred" accuracy problems did not actually state it. Brain slip.

Dan

[Curt J]

There is no question, the change to the percussion system was a few years behind in the "West". The "West" being any state that wasn't on the Eastern Seaboard, at that time.  During the Blackhawk War, at the Battle of the Apple River Fort (Jo Daviess County, Illinois), in 1832, there was only one percussion rifle involved. It was the first one that most of the fort's defenders had seen, and was unusual enough for the writers of local history books to have noted.  The fact that the rifle's owner was to become the only casualty of the battle, probably didn't advance the popularity of the percussion system in that area. On the other hand, I have a rifle made by Thomas Hunt, in Peoria County, Illinois, dated Feb. 21, 1833, that is definitely original percussion. Hunt came to Illinois from Ohio in 1831. Several years ago, there was a Thomas Hunt rifle displayed at our Prairie State Longrifle Show, that was also original percussion, and was dated 1828. Apparently Hunt was on the "cutting edge" of this technology. Hunt died in Peoria County, Illinois, in 1836. Shortly before his death, he made a rifle for his brother-in-law, which was flintlock. If the customer lived in an area where percussion caps were not always readily available, he would be a bit reluctant to make the change.

[Feltwad]

Joshua Shaw is created to the percussion cap these were of the top hat design and  made of steel or iron , this was prior to 1817 before he left America mostly due too Forsyth suing anybody that used the compound in different types such has tubes caps etc
Feltwad

[Artificer]

I guess I am a little confused as to what is being asserted here.....wasn't the US government still contracting for some flintlocks into the early 1840's?  It's also hard to imagine that all other gun makers would be so far ahead of the government.

The Model 1840 Flintlock Musket (the last M1820/22 type sometimes mistakenly called the M1816 type) was the last flintlock longarm to be made at either Harper's Ferry or Springfield.  Not many of these muskets were actually issued in flintlock, though, and many were kept back and converted to percussion.

The Model 1841 "Mississippi" Rifle was both the first percussion U.S. Arm AND the first one to be manufactured on the "interchangeable Parts System."  

The Model 1842 Musket was percussion from the beginning when the Model was approved.  

The U.S. military did not change over to Percussion System until good caps were available, but when they were, the change was pretty fast, especially for Military Ordnance that did not change things until they had been proven.

The Model 1841 Rifle and Model 1842 Musket were both superseded by the M1855 Rifled Musket and Rifle, that both fired the new "Minie" or "Burton" bullets.  

The U.S. was not far behind the British Military in converting to percussion.  The British Pattern 1839 Muskets were converted Flintlocks to Percussion.  The fire in the Tower of London caused them to come up with a brand new Pattern 1842 Musket that was percussion from the beginning.  This was the same year we designated the M1842 Percussion Musket that was made only as percussion.

Gus.  

[Artificer]

One caveat to the above.  M1817 Common Rifles were delivered from civilian contractors as late as 1842 in flintlock per the original contracts.  However, the last ones were also not issued and most converted to percussion.

Gus