Author Topic: lock tuning  (Read 9504 times)

Offline frenchman

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lock tuning
« on: February 28, 2014, 09:46:08 PM »
this is a L&r lock i am presently tuning it up here is my question

my stirrup is lower then the base of the plate 1/32 to be exact do i weld a small piece to the hammer and do i also weld a small piece to the bridal  and will this change the geometry of the hammer when hitting the frizzen

Denis

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 10:31:46 PM »
That's a half lap link and if I were doing something to it,I'd make a new shorter link.
Also,I usually replace the whole mechanism.
Bob Roller

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2014, 10:32:01 PM »
Welding a bit onto the hammer and bridal won't change the geometry of the flint hitting the frizzen, but will prevent it from going as far down.  A better option would be to make a new stirrup 1/32 shorter than the one you've got.  If there are issues with the mainspring clearance, you've got enough meat to file the "hook" down.  You can also just inlet that part deeper in the mortise and remember to bring the lock to half-cock before removing it from your gun.

If it were mine I'd go with the new stirrup.  

-Eric
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline rich pierce

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 10:33:52 PM »
Nobody with a lick of sense is going to think they know more about locks than Bob Roller.  Where else are you going to get an answer right away from a master?
Andover, Vermont

d-a

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 11:35:11 PM »
That's a half lap link and if I were doing something to it,I'd make a new shorter link.
Also,I usually replace the whole mechanism.
Bob Roller

Mr Roller,

When you say replace the whole mechanism, what exactly are you referring to?

Thanks
Doug

Offline Dphariss

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 01:07:49 AM »
Building all new internal parts.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 01:55:05 AM »
By replacing the whole mechanism that's what it means.At this point,probably making a shorter link
would be the most practical solution.Whoever assembled the lock didn't inspect it.You might check with L&R and see if they use different lengths of links.

Bob Roller

Offline frenchman

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 05:24:43 AM »
thanks Bob will try that
Denis

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 05:46:38 AM »
I am building a gun now where I used an L&R lock because I needed a late English left hand lock.   I ended up significantly modifying all the internal parts and putting a bronze bearing in the plate to make it function acceptably to me.    It would probably been quicker to have just made all new internal parts.   I have vowed to never buy another L&R lock.    If Chambers or Davis doesn't make it,  the customer will have to pay me to make them one. 

Offline Curtis

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2014, 10:22:51 AM »
I have a late English L&R on my hunting/competition rifle and have had no issues with it, period.

Curtis
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Frank

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2014, 04:42:52 PM »
I know this is off topic, but I bought an L&R lock once. Never again!

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2014, 07:35:16 PM »
Hey guys - I'm not a moderator - but lets not turn this into an L&R dislike thread.  I've used locks by Chambers, Davis, L&R, and I've made a bunch as well - not a single one of them worked flawlessly out of the package.  Yes, some required much less tuning than others - I don't think that lock should have left with the link below the plate.  Still, it's a small miracle that we can even get the variety of locks we do, so I use L&R and expect to tune them when it fits my purposes.  I can always swap out the guts as Bob suggests anyway  ;)
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 07:49:42 PM »
Very well said Eric, I could not agree more ;). There is too much negativity in some of these post/replies nowadays, it use to be that someone asked a question and there were good information from a lot of helpful people lately there seems to be a lot of bashing - where's the LOVE ;D?
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2014, 08:25:00 PM »
I think that whoever does the final assembly on any lock is the one who
should know how to look for parts hanging beneath the lock plate.
I have had some that were close but still useable.
Some really high class English caplocks have the link hanging below the plate
but when they are rotated to the position of the nipple,they are OK and the
"feel"of these locks is fabulous when drawn to full cock.
Production work is what it is,production and that means that some times quality
control slips a bit.

Bob Roller

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 08:35:27 PM »
I know you are supposed to be positive these days, but if we are trying to educate,  we need to be honest.    If you are honest,  L&R locks generally don't come as well assembled as Chambers or Davis; and they are not made to be as well assembled.   L&R locks are assembled as cast.   The castings are designed with the tolerances to do this.  That means that the fit is always sloppy as compared with a lock that has the tumbler axles turned and polished and fit into reamed and polished holes with a .002" tolerance.  In order to resolve this I turn and polish the axles (must anneal and re-heat treat) and install bushings in the plate and bridle.  Also, every L&R lock I have seen had the bridle a little off center resulting in a slightly canted tumbler and cock.   I don't know exactly what the causes this, but in order to remedy it,  I must move one of the bridle screw holes and reshape the sear slightly.   Usually, this means that I must also reshape and re-heat treat the sear spring.  Additionally,  because the hole through the sear is significantly larger than the screw,  it wobbles.   I make a new screw fit to that hole.   There are other issues, but those are the main functional ones.  

I don't think I am being negative when I talk about L&R locks.  I am telling the truth.   This is what I have seen and what I have had to do with regard to L&R locks.   I have never had to do this kind of work to a Chambers, and if I did get something like that from them,  I would send it back because I know that is not the way Jim Chambers wants it to be.   Actually, he sets the standard for mass produced locks, and I expect all the locks I install to at least meet that standard.   Other than the cosmetic filing and polishing,  the only work I have ever had to do to a Chambers lock is a little stoning and polishing of the sear tip, fly, and tumbler axles.    

I guess some people don't think it is fair to compare L&R locks to Chambers.   Frankly,  I think it is our obligation as educators to compare when there is such a significant difference in approach to assembling their locks.  

I think that I have provided a fair critique of L&R locks based on my experience.   If others have had different experiences,  I am happy to read about them.   As long as we avoid name calling (like simply referring to something as "junk") and are specific about problems or concerns then I think a critiques are fair.  


Offline Robby

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 09:21:13 PM »
I agree mark, thank you.
Robby
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Offline PPatch

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2014, 09:45:31 PM »
A valid critique Mark.

dp
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 12:56:11 AM »
I have received poorly functioning locks from 5 star and 3 star makers.  Equally poorly functioning.  It's best to take it up with them.  Would your favorite lock maker appreciate it if I posted about a lock of his with problems?  I wouldn't do it, but there is no maker who produces a lot of locks that is immune from a lemon or two.  Take it to the maker and request a swap or fix.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dphariss

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2014, 03:03:00 AM »
I have received poorly functioning locks from 5 star and 3 star makers.  Equally poorly functioning.  It's best to take it up with them.  Would your favorite lock maker appreciate it if I posted about a lock of his with problems?  I wouldn't do it, but there is no maker who produces a lot of locks that is immune from a lemon or two.  Take it to the maker and request a swap or fix.

Its endemic with some suppliers. Worse they have modified the locks over the years to make them WORSE in some ways.
This tells me someone is clueless, actually both the maker and the users.
I love the L&R 1700. But they are a kit as they arrive. The last one needed the tumbler hole welded shut, redrilled in the right place, reamed to fit the trued tumbler shaft. The cock needed to have their "change" (I used them year ago too) removed and the springs had to be rearched. But its still worth it because at its heart is a great design.
Last year we, being our guild, bought about 12 locks from Chambers, most were small Siler flint with several others, with the 2 I have, one in use and one in the safe, this makes 14 or 15 locks. While I did not check everyone in detail they ALL looked just like they should and were good to go out of the box. But Chambers does not make designs that fit everything I want so I buy from other places.
Buying castings? Chambers stuff is pretty darn good as is L&R but the Rifle Shoppe stuff needs some improvement. As a friend said 3-4 years back. "You bought a casting and did not buy a welder to go with it?"
By and large the parts available for making MLs are so poor in quality compared to what modern gunsmiths will tolerate its almost laughable. The difference being that people buying a custom bolt gun will pay the price, while the average ML buyer is so cheap its nearly impossible to get paid a living wage. If a decent relief carved Kentucky man hours were computed to match the manhours/price ratio of a "tactical" bolt action they would sell for 20 grand and up. So the parts have to be cheap so the time to make them is shortened and the quality suffers. Then people too cheap to pay for better parts complain the quality is low. So its a self inflicted wound. Many will whine about prices that pay minimum wage for shop time (covering the electricity tool wear etc) much less what the gunsmith alone is worth. And its obvious that some suppliers of locks and other parts don't much care. Maybe they are fed up". I dunno.

Its FAR easier for me to fix something than spend time on the phone then shipping stuff back getting it back and finding out its as bad as before. So I just do the fix and let it go at that. By the time the parts get shipped back and forth I have them fixed and the lock installed in the stock.
So as long as people will accept or even demand crappy parts we will get crappy parts.
My hat is off to those who try to do it right. But some of these have dropped out of the market. I just learned of barrel maker has given up on making ML barrels since people will pay his price for a CF barrel but  the ML barrel buyers act offended, its like trying to sell cufflinks or a tie to Jack Benny on his old radio show. Its crazy but that's how it is. Same to some extent in the BPCR field though the quality is generally much better, people still will pay more for bolt gun with 1/2 to 1/3 the man hours in it and a cast plastic stock.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2014, 03:25:42 AM »
I use 3 of the L&R locks,externals only as a basis for a new and hopefully improved mechanism.
These are the Durs Egg,Small Manton and the Ashmore. I have stated before I will not have my reputation riding on the quality control or lack thereof in a foundry someplace.
I am not taking in any new work until I can get past some of the work that is yet to be done.After that I may or may not resume but that will have little effect on the muzzle loading market as far as I can tell.
Long ago I decided I'd make locks for those that didn't let $5 stall their gun making and that is still my policy.

  Bob Roller

Offline frenchman

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2014, 06:06:00 AM »
i don't know how i should feel about my question. ???
I just wanted to know how to go about it .I feel this is turning into a debate that may not be at the right place and yes i have sent a notice and waiting for an answer about the lock. We can do all the bashing we want i or us amateur builders still need help to learn how to repair locks X Y or Z
Denis

Offline rich pierce

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2014, 06:26:11 AM »
Don't worry, Frenchman.  Same thing happens every time somebody posts a problem with brand x or y locks. 
Andover, Vermont

Ric27

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 05:34:27 AM »
I know it's not ideal but why not just create clearance inside the lock mortise to make room for the part below the edge of he plate. Not really a big deal.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2014, 06:18:45 AM »
Frenchman,

I am sorry if my comments contributed to your discouragement.   It is just that I have spent a lot of time fixing L&R locks; and it is mostly time that cost me money.  The best and easiest solution would be if L&R would replace the lock with one better assembled.  After that,  I would go with Ric's suggestion.   As yours is not the first lock (modern or antique)  by any stretch of the imagination that I have seen with this problem,  in most cases,  the lock mortice is just relieved inside to accommodate the link (or tumbler) hanging down a bit.  Just don't forget to put the lock at half cock putting it in and taking it out.    As Bob suggested.  the next easiest solution is to make a slightly shorter link.

I would also suggest that you check very carefully with a straight edge perpendicular to the plate to make sure the link really is below the edge of the plate.   Because of curves and bevels on the plate it can be very hard to tell if a part close to the edge of the plate will clear the outer edge of the lock mortice or not.   The angle of your photo would tend to show the link and spring below the plate even if it weren't.    All I am suggesting is that perhaps the overhang is so slight that a slight gap or bevel on the inside of the lock mortice at the location in question, perhaps just a single chisel cut,  could resolve the whole matter.   

While it is unlikely on a new lock,  you might check to made sure that there isn't any movement of the cock on the tumbler axle.   I have run into this on worn locks, and tightening up the fit by peening the inside of the cock around the tumbler hole can accommodate that.   However,  it does tend to be a temporary solution requiring a new tumbler for a permanent solution.    That then takes you back to replacing the internals, but they would have to be custom made in order to resolve the problem.

Again,  I am sorry for my contribution to your dismay.

Best,

Mark E.



   


Offline frenchman

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Re: lock tuning
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2014, 05:12:33 AM »
After contacting L&R they made good and took the lock back and fix it. They had to change the plate and the pan and the frizz-en i have some small adjustment and redrill the screw hole . It's partly a bit my fault, i should of check it better on reception and that is a promise to myself for the next one .
Mark everything is OK
trust me
Your comments will always be welcome. You has many others are great source of knowledge i hope to meet some of you guy's this summer at Dixon's and taste some of that American beer and thanks again
Denis