Breech Plug Install

[jamesthomas]

 I was wondering, if you are unable to install a breech plug who would you send it off to that would do the best job? I know lots of you folks take it in and out several times but I'm not up to that point yet, The 2 rifles I have plans for I'll have the barrel inletted and the ramrod hole drilled, Like a pre-carve from Dave Keck or Tip Curtis are the two I'll get the stocks from, the wood will be from Dunlap Woodcrafts. Thank you.

[smallpatch]

james,
Even with the barrel channel inletted, your plug will not be. 
 if the barrel is already breached, it's just about putting it in a padded vice, and unscrewing it with a big wrench.  If it's never been breached before, you might need some guidance, but its still the same procedure, with a little marking, and filing in between.
My advice........ if you're gonna build guns, you've got to learn to remove a breechplug.  If this is going to stop your progress, you're gonna have a bunch more stops along the way to completion.
Please accept this in the spirit given.   This is a very basic process  you need to know.  Do you have all the books for builders....  Those will help tremendously.  Don't start with out them.

[jamesthomas]

 I have a couple of books but me and a new guy need to check out the barrel he has from Tip Curtis to make sure the breech plug is flush so there are no gaps for fouling to get in. I'll be looking for a bore light to make sure. Its just the filing and fitting part if its not that has us stumped. I think the only problem would be pulling the installed plug if we have to, but I reckon we will figure it out, might go through a couple of plugs, but practice makes perfect 

[galamb]

James,

there is a really good set of written instructions on the TOTW site - you can find it here http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1012/1/LABOR-BP

And another version by a hobby builder with a couple diagrams - also discusses where he went wrong/how it was corrected http://home.comcast.net/~illinewek/faqs/pbreech.htm

Between the both sets of instructions, and half a bottle of Tums, I breeched my first barrel without any complications.

It was a "two night" event, but now, four plugs later, I can get one timed in less than an hour if the plug threads are longer than the breech.

[jamesthomas]

 O.k.! Thank you. I reckon when the time comes I'll get the Tums and start on it. It probably helps that you can't get it as tight as what a company installed plug is also. Time to hit Lowes or Bass Pro for a bore light to make sure the plug and the shoulder of the breech are mated up correctly.

[Ky-Flinter]

.... I'll be looking for a bore light to make sure.

James e,

I don't think a bore light will be of much help.  Even with one of those tiny scope viewers that auto mechanics use to look into sparkplug holes, I don't think you could tell for sure if you had a properly fitted plug.

IMHO, there is no substitute for removing the plug, coat the plug face with magic marker or Dykem, screw it back in to the witness mark, then take it back out and check the contact.  I usually buy barrels that are "already breached", but some times I find they aren't done properly.  Usually the lug of the plug hits the end of the barrel before the face of the plug hits the shoulder in the bore.  Check this before dove-tailing the barrel, and it's a simple matter to do it properly with a little hand-file work.

-Ron

[Don Getz]

I don't think a bore light will help you.  If you must check it, put the barrel in a padded vise, take an open end adjustable wrench, about a 12" or bigger, and take the plug out.    When you put the barrel in the vise make sure it is close to the
breech end of the barrel, with the plug sticking out of the right side of the vise, in an up-side down position.  Then place the
wrench over the stud of the breechplug and PULL.  (If this was a TC  barrel with a paten breech you would need a 3' long wrench).  With the plug removed, check the forward part of the plug to see if it is marred  by hitting the threads at the bottom
of the threaded hole.  You might want to check the depth of the threaded hole and compare that depth to the length of the
threads on the plug.   If it is close, I would then check the barrel inlet and make sure it is inletted real well without the plug.
If the inlet looks good, you could then put the breechplug back into the barrel and inlet it.  This is about as basic as I can
describe it.........Don

[Dphariss]

I dunno this like shows good and bad pretty well.
Good

Bad


Still need to pull AND reinstall the breech and by ALL MEANS before doing any inletting. Reinstall will tell if it will index properly when reinstalled.
If the barrel was breeched by the maker then experiences of several makers I know and myself tell me its better than 50-50 that it needs to be redone. Its far better to do this before inletting to save a lot of wailing and hair pulling. 

Dan

[jamesthomas]

Dan is that a mechanics light? because that's the picture I was thinking about when I thinking about the bore light and camera. I know, I know "thinking to much" can get me into a lot of trouble.

[Herb]

See the Tutorials board, Gunmaking Tools-metal shaping-  Page 2-  "Fitting a Hawken Breech Plug by Hand" by Herb.  Works for any plug.

[Dphariss]

Dan is that a mechanics light? because that's the picture I was thinking about when I thinking about the bore light and camera. I know, I know "thinking to much" can get me into a lot of trouble.

Yeah my son has one from his diesel mechanic days. 36" long. I can record it on DVD and/or photograph the TV screen.
Note that the image of the "bad" install its possible to see the threads past the rebated breech face by looking through the grooves.
Its not a very good bore scope really but its handy for some things.
Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

It's pretty hard to tell what you're looking at in those photos. I think you're better off pulling the plug and measuring.


This is my opinion on breeching barrels. I am often wrong about things, but this is what I go by:

The time to check the plug-to-barrel fit is BEFORE you inlet the barrel to the stock. I prefer to pull the plug on every barrel, and fit the plug if it's not up to my tidy-bowl standards. While I'm at it, I run a tight patch down the bore to check for rough spots or any other problems. I also drawfile the two side flats to clean them up, and put a very slight taper on them, before inletting the barrel.

Since there are thousands of barrels out there with gaps between the plug and the rifling, it's not so much a safety issue as a cleaning issue. The downside of a gap between plug and bore: I hate when black goo keeps coming out of a barrel, even after scrubbing and patching, etc. It's just about impossible to get the barrel clean unless you pull the barrel out of the stock and stick it in a bucket of water.

[oldfox]

Being new to this, I have a question on the breech plug.  If you purchase a barrel that already has a BP installed and you find that it was no done properly, and the tang is fully indexed to the top flat, what then?    Do you have to file it enough for one complete turn to get the tang back to it's top position.   Just a question...I have no barrel...as yet 

[Dphariss]

Being new to this, I have a question on the breech plug.  If you purchase a barrel that already has a BP installed and you find that it was no done properly, and the tang is fully indexed to the top flat, what then?    Do you have to file it enough for one complete turn to get the tang back to it's top position.   Just a question...I have no barrel...as yet 

You fix it with a file and careful work.  If you have a lathe with a large enough spindle bore it can be used.
If its not already built into a gun its fairly easy unless the breech plug is really screwed up as in the case of the "bad" photo above.  Just index everything over another flat or even a full turn if needed. Be sure the bore is in the center of the barrel. If it is where the top flat ends up is not important. If its off like the old Douglas barrels and some GMs I got years ago then the flat that is closest to the bore needs to be the bottom flat.   If they tapped the bore for a plug as is done on some thin wall barrels some makers seem to like to put in 2-4 more threads than there are on the plug. More stuff to fix since this is a fouling trap. This is why its best to just order it unbreeched. Then it can be put together right without having the dink around fixing someone else's mistakes.

A friends experience (and mine for that matter) with complaining to the barrel maker tells me having the guy that screwed it up fix it is a waste of time.

Dan

[oldfox]

Thanks Dan..

[Dphariss]

It's pretty hard to tell what you're looking at in those photos. I think you're better off pulling the plug and measuring.


This is my opinion on breeching barrels. I am often wrong about things, but this is what I go by:

The time to check the plug-to-barrel fit is BEFORE you inlet the barrel to the stock. I prefer to pull the plug on every barrel, and fit the plug if it's not up to my tidy-bowl standards. While I'm at it, I run a tight patch down the bore to check for rough spots or any other problems. I also drawfile the two side flats to clean them up, and put a very slight taper on them, before inletting the barrel.

Since there are thousands of barrels out there with gaps between the plug and the rifling, it's not so much a safety issue as a cleaning issue. The downside of a gap between plug and bore: I hate when black goo keeps coming out of a barrel, even after scrubbing and patching, etc. It's just about impossible to get the barrel clean unless you pull the barrel out of the stock and stick it in a bucket of water.

With blackpowder the safety thing is not that important I suppose, to some folks anyway. The breechplugs if they have more than 4-5 good threads will be stronger than the barrel unless the thread fit is really poor. But having powder gases impinging on the full breech face of a 3/4x16 plug vs the area of the bore of a 50-54 caliber does increase the breech thrust quite a bit. In percussion guns  that may be shot with powder that produces chlorate fouling (or even FLs with "duplex"loads) its another matter. This stuff can and will pick a spot and literally eat a hole to the outside. This was foretold to me by Mad Monk many years ago. It will also eat steel under an oil film.  So having a place for this stuff to hide is really bad. BP fouling generally will not do much once oiled but its still a risk. So misfit the breech and the owner shoots it a few times with the wrong powder and somewhere down the road the fouling trap will cause "issues" of some kind worse than "its hard to clean". The thing that amazes me is that there are not more guns out there with "vented" breeches as a result of this. But then we likely don't hear much about it.... Remember that the fouling will be forced back 2-3 threads in cases of not quite right fitting and the chlorate fouling carries its own oxygen I am told and even if "sealed" continues to "work".

Dan

[Dphariss]

In thinking about this...
Why ML shooters will accept second class or worse work in barrels and breeches never ceases to amaze me.
If you build or rebarrel a MODERN firearm like a 270 or a 30-06 then tell the customer the headspace is off some cause you screwed up and some other stuff is out of spec but you THINK its OK to shoot, that  it probably will not fail just because it will fire on a "no-go" gage and see what they say.

But since its only a ML its ok to do sloppy work to a part the owner holds inches from his face as it contains 10000-15000 or more PSI. T-C got away with it and even survived the lawsuits so its OK I guess...
The idea that "its better than it was in the old days" simply shows a compete lack of understanding of the number of people killed and maimed back in the day and a lack of understanding of the fact that its really not that much better if its not properly made.
But of course this might be uncomfortable to think about so its better to just blow it off and forget about it.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I received a barrel from one of my rifles back from its owner.  Against my strong advice, he used black powder substitute powders because his buddies told him I didn't know what I was talking about.  Within three years, a pit that looked like the last 1/4" of a needle formed, and perforated the breech plug casting right at the threads.  He wanted me to replace the whole assembly (breech and barrel) on my dollar.  After the smoke cleared, he agreed to have me rebreech it, and he wouldn't use the subs in it anymore, and he paid for the work.  Mad Monk was instrumental in this whole ugly event, as he was kind enough to give solid evidence to support me, and condemn the per-chlorate powders. 

I hope my rifles are enjoying a new life with a kinder diet.

[Dphariss]

When I worked at Shiloh, which specified not such powder be used. We got quite a number of rifles back, sometimes in less then a month departure to arrival with "bad barrels" they were invariably shot with chlorate powder and micro pitted and the blue all removed from the bore. One look and I would tell Wolf and he would inform the owner that a new barrel was on his dime.
 And we did replace barrels if we erred.
They got in a new 50-70 reamer and did not bother to have me spec or at least check it before use. The rifles shot patterns at 100 with BP. Chamber mouth was something like .030" over what they should have been. Wolf recalled the rifles, I wrote a sheet and the reamer was reground and everything was resolved. But pitted barrels we would not pay for. The stuff is horribly aggressive. I used to do tours of the plant I would tell people they were mostly BP only if over 70 gr capacity. I would give the "warning" about subs as well. I had a couple tell me how they had used it for years with no problem. One had a Ruger old army with him and I went outside an examined it. It had been seriously pitted at the cylinder face and elsewhere. He had it reblued over the pits, probably because the stuff removed the blue where it was not seriously pitted.
But there are still people that will swear they have no damage. But its simply not possible. It will eat the steel between shots or while driving home to clean it and its cumulative. The stories are legend.
Its really scary to look at a new barrel with virtually not use that has a uniform frosty look to the bore and then with a 10 power loup in the Opti-visor it turns into tiny sharp edged pits.  Given that at the time I had customers who were shooting multiple 1000s of rounds every year with BP and after years the bores still looked better than new because they were cleaner.....

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

We're getting off topic....this is actually very good stuff....but it's no longer about the breechplug. I just say because it would be hard to access this substitute powder info by searching. It would be better as its own topic.

[okawbow]

Personally, I would send an improperly breeched barrel back to the maker. If I pay for work done; I expect it to be done right.

[Acer Saccharum]

I hate to say it, but barrels with the plug short of the rifling is what is we commonly find.

If I say it's 'improperly breeched', others will say that barrels from the beginning of time have been breeched this way. They have a point.

Unless I am happy with the gap ahead of the plug, I ALWAYS plan on fitting the plug as part of my prep work.


Just as in locks, which always need a little tweaking, consider final fitting of the plug as a fact of life. Or be prepared to pay extra to have someone do this for you. If ordering a custom, specify it on your order.

[Mark Elliott]

Tom is right that most barrels could be breeched a little better.   The main complaint I have is that the breech plugs generally come with fairly rough tool marks on the face and I like them polished.    I should say that the last few Southern Classic barrels I have gotten from Rice couldn't have been breeched any better.   They all (45 & 50  cal) have been breech with a 3/4" plug that was well larger than the bore and rifling.  The breech was bored on a lathe and had a large flat shoulder the plug face could pull up against.   Since I seem to be pointing out problems a lot lately.  I figured I would note something that was done pretty well.   

[galamb]

The noted issues are exactly the reason any builder, hobby or otherwise should take the time to learn how to breech a barrel.

I have only bought 5 barrels but specifically asked that they not have the plug installed.

The first plug took me a couple of long evenings and more than a couple of Tums with all the worrying that I would do something wrong. The second was considerably quicker.

The last one took about 40 minutes and that was with a stop for a smoke half way through - and I use nothing more than files, a caliper and machine square.

Since I'm pulling the trigger on a potential pipe bomb a few inches from my face, I feel my "vested interest" in having properly breeched barrel is greater than any one else's.

[blaksmth]

James ,

 Any good Machinist can breech a barrel and fit the breech correctly, or better yet if you are near a college or some times a High school  will give adult education classes in machine shop and welding.

 The town where I live used to give these classes and I had full use of some really good equipment for a class quarter , I built some really good parts at a minimum expense, this was before I owned the machine tools I have now