Lock parts wear or breakage question.

[Artificer]

I would appreciate thoughts on what parts on a flintlock lock wear out or break the soonest and in what order they generally do so.  The thinking behind this is what spare parts would be a good idea to keep on hand?  I am not sure if this is the order of parts wear, but perhaps it will be useful as a list? 

1.     Sear
2.     Tumbler
3.      Fly
4.      Frizzen
5.      Frizzen Spring Screw
6.      Frizzen Spring
7.      Top Jaw Screw
8.      Cock/Hammer
9.      Cock/Hammer Screw
10.      Sear Screw   
11.      Bridle Screw
12.      Bridle
13.      Lockplate retaining screw/s
14.      Mainspring
15.      Mainspring Screw (If there is one)

Gus

[smart dog]

Hi Gus,
Interesting question.  It would be nice to hear from restorers about wear they observe.  My sense and experience suggest to me that if a lock is properly made and heat treated (original and modern) there is very little to worry about with respect to wear.  Certainly, the frizzen face may be shot through if case hardened but unless a mistake was made in fitting or heat treating, or the lock mistreated, not much needs attention.  Mainsprings do break, but again a well made one should last longer than you.

dave 

[t.caster]

Using good quality Chambers, L&R and Davis locks over the years....nothing has ever really worn out except a frizzen face and that can be rehardened. I have had frizzen and mainsprings break, rarely. Biggest replacement item on the list is the fly....because I LOST IT on the floor. I keep a few extra springs and flies in stock, along with several complete locks for future builds That I can use in a pinch and order new parts as needed. In 30 yrs. I only remember breaking one screw, a cock screw.

[Acer Saccharum]

If you're talking a poorly built lock, or lock out of balance, or installed with interference from set triggers, then there is a whole raft of issues.

Like others have said above, not many issues with a good lock and proper care. You'll wear thru a frizzen before anything else goes.

[Mark Elliott]

On antiques I have repaired,  it is frizzen faces and faded or broken springs; mostly main springs and sear springs.

[hammer]

And cocks/hammers on antiques that have been dropped or knocked.   Not unusual to find non-matching hammers on a percussion side-by-side shotgun, for instance, or a pistol with a broken hammer.   
Peter.

[Dphariss]

Frizzens, non-roller Frizzen springs, tumblers and sears. The springs, if they are good, will not go flat in the service life. Though given the service life of some rifles, 100 years or more from the early guns converted to percussion in some of the books, and the metallurgy its a possibility.
Flys will also increase sear wear.

How well the lock parts were  assembled and hardened is also a factor. Many import locks were not all that great and may have been shipped soft in some if not many cases.
If the maker did not properly harden parts then they would wear rapidly.

Dan

[Mark Elliott]

Gus,

If you are talking about spare parts for modern locks we shoot,  then that is another matter.   I keep an entire spare lock for my personal shooting rifles.   However,  the part that I have had to replace the most (a couple of times) is the tumbler because of a broken half cock notch.   This was totally MY fault, and really quite embarrassing to have to call Jim Chambers and order spare tumblers.  I have a tendency to forget the the lock is still at half cock,  particularly on those locks where half and full cock are fairly far back.   At this point, you probably know what happens next.   I try to fire the rifle with set triggers and on occassion, the half cock notch is broken out by the rear set trigger.    I have never used a lock long enough to wear it out.  I have had to resurface frizzens, but given that all my locks have 1095 frizzens hardened through,  I just have to hit them with the belt sander. 

Mark

[Habu]

On rifle locks, for me it would be tumblers and sears, frizzens, and the occasional spring.   I had a stirrup link break once too, and I've lost a couple flies while the lock was apart for maintenance.  I broke a hammer screw once too, but that was due to ham-handedness and the stupidity of youth.

The lock on my old Pedersoli Brown Bess was another matter--it finally wore out--but I shot it a lot.  Over the years I replaced springs, the frizzen, the sear, bushed the plate and bridle (then finally replaced the bridle with a new one made from properly-hardened O-1), brazed up the pan due to gas-cutting, top jaw and screw were replaced after a fall. 

[Stoner creek]

Let's not forget cast mainsprings. While they may not wear out, they will start losing their memory.

[Don Getz]

I built my first gun in 1970, and last year I finished number 98.  A huge majority of them had siler locks, and I have never had
to replace a part.   I don't have a set of spare parts in the shop.  I have stolen parts from a good siler that I had in the shop,
however,they were broken by someone else, doing dumb things.  When things like that happen I prefer to pack it up and send
it down to Jim, he does it a heck of better and quicker than I can.........Don

[Stoner creek]

I'm with Don. That big Siler is and will continue to be the V-8 350 of our sport.

[Artificer]

Gentlemen,

I believe this to be very important information to pass on to others, who may also have wondered about such things.  I truly appreciate the comments made by each and every one of you.  Thank you all very much.

In my own case, most of the original and repro locks I’ve worked over the years have been on NSSA guns or reenactor guns, mainly percussion but a fair quantity of military flintlocks.  So quality of the lock parts ranges from excellent in the case of original locks and English made Parker Hale locks down to some really poorly made and hardened locks.   I have worked some original civilian locks, both flintlock and percussion, but not nearly as much as many or even most of you.  I’ve found your comments very educational.

Smart dog,
Thanks for being the first to reply.  I appreciate it.

t.caster,
I got a kick out of you relating how you lost a fly.  I have not worked many locks with fly’s in them, but I found loss to be the biggest problem with the ones I’ve worked on.  I’ve only ever seen one wore out, so I did not know if that was uncommon or not.  

As to breaking the top jaw screw,   I have also only seen this happen with one lock and it was on an original M1840 Flintlock Musket shot in International competition.  This rare musket was in such great condition, it perhaps should not have been shot a lot, but that is what the owner did.  However, on the first day of practice in the UK, the top jaw screw broke.  I brought a LOT of replacement screws, some springs and some parts I thought might wear out according to what guns our shooters were shooting.  I had just one repro top jaw screw for M 1816/20/22 muskets because that was the original musket of choice for the competition, but I honestly did not expect it would be the first replacement part I had to use.  I had to gingerly re-tap the cock for it, but I was surprised there was almost no fitting beyond that.  Considering how these musket locks were not made to the interchangeable parts system, I told the shooter we got real lucky with it.  

Acer,
My eyes perked up when you mentioned “interference from set triggers.”  Would you please consider going into more detail on how that happens and perhaps how to check on it?  Thank you.

Mark,  
Thank you for your two posts on original and modern locks.  Yes, I was/am looking for info on both.  Are 1095 steel frizzens common on modern locks or do you make your own?

Hammer,
Thanks for your comments on user damaged originals.  Though with the exception of cavalry pistols, original pistols are not as common as long guns, but it’s a good point they seem to have been broken more by accident or misuse.

Dphariss,

My eyes perked up at your comment of “Flys will also increase sear wear.”  Do you mean where the fly contacts the sear face or in some other way?  Thank you.

Habu,
Wow, it sounds like you have used a Pedersoli Brown Bess lock more than anyone else I have ever heard about, even most reenactors!  GREAT info there.   Did you make the 01 bridle?  The reason I ask is because I am now on my second Pedersoli Brown Bess for the last 12 years or so, and that might come up with mine.

Stoner Creek,
I have never hardened cast springs and wondered how they stood up over time.  Thanks for the info.

Don Getz,
Thank you for replying.  That’s a lot of years and guns for experience, so I value that information hugely.  Not having spare parts in your shop is a great testament to Siler Locks.

In my far lesser experience than many or most of you, two guns stood out when I worked International Muzzle Loading guns.  The first was a very nice original percussion Jaeger rifle owned by the wife of the Swiss Team Captain at the World Championships in 96.  The second was a high quality original flintlock/dueling pistol brought to me at the 98 World Championships by the French Team Captain.  I almost forgot to breathe when I read “N. Boutet” on the barrel and he confirmed it had been made by Nicolas Boutet, Armourer to Napolean.  Both locks were butchered by an Idiot with a Snag Grinder and it MAY have been the same “supposed gunsmith” for both guns as both were done almost identically.  

Gus

[Habu]

Gus, that Bess was my primary long gun for almost 20 years, during a period when I shot (and experimented) a great deal.  For example, at one point I had 4 or 5 frizzens fitted to the lock, so I could experiment with different period methods of half-soling a frizzen.   I also hunted with it a lot.  

As originally acquired, the lock was rather sloppy and the springs were. . . well, not to my satisfaction.  A new set of springs was soon made.  I had to bush the plate and bridle after about 125-150 pounds of powder; what I should have done was to turn the tumbler so the shaft through the plate and the pin through the bridle were both round and in-line.  I didn't, so the bushing in the bridle didn't last--hence the replacement bridle.  I used O-1 because I had a piece the right size on hand.  The pan had to be brazed up because an over-sized touch hole (to speed ignition) had gas-cut the pan bottom.

Before use, the replacement lock was re-built with a properly-fit tumbler, re-hardened internals, a case-hardened plate, forged springs, and a half-faced frizzen.  It is much easier to do this work on a new lock, than to incorporate it into the re-build of a used lock.  If I were doing it over, the only thing I'd change about the lock would be to use a tumbler bushing in the manner of the Chambers Delux Siler.   (I'd also want to move the touch hole up, and use a White Lightnin' liner.)

[LRB]

Let's not forget cast mainsprings. While they may not wear out, they will start losing their memory.

 A cast spring will not lose it's "memory" any faster than a forged spring. If one goes soft, it was not heat treated properly from the start. It was either under hardened, or over tempered.

[Mark Elliott]

Gus,  I believe 1095 is common for modern frizzens.   However,  I also stock a lot of 1095 for frizzens, springs, and tools that I make.   

[Artificer]

 I had to bush the plate and bridle after about 125-150 pounds of powder; what I should have done was to turn the tumbler so the shaft through the plate and the pin through the bridle were both round and in-line.  I didn't, so the bushing in the bridle didn't last--hence the replacement bridle.  I used O-1 because I had a piece the right size on hand.  The pan had to be brazed up because an over-sized touch hole (to speed ignition) had gas-cut the pan bottom.

Wow!!  I think you may have set some kind of record on the use of a Pedersoli Bess.  Grin. 

I really do appreciate your explanation of what you did as I am on my second Pedersoli Bess.  I bought my first in the mid 70's and because I hoped to also do an impression of a Continental Marine Sergeant, I bought the "Brown Bess Carbine," because that was the closest thing to a "Sergeant's Fusil" that was available to get on my finances then.  It was also a better gun to shoot Northwest Trade Gun with, and that's how I used it the most until I shattered the stock when first reenacting the UnCivil War in the early 80's.  I got quite a few comments on how that flint lock was as reliable as the percussion rifle muskets everyone else had.

Around 2000, I broke down and got a full length Pedersoli for use in doing an impression of a Pirvate Soldier in the Major's Company, 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, The Black Watch.  I don't remember how well or not the frizzen closed off the pan on my first lock, though I never had a problem with it.  However since we do so much "cast about" when loading where powder will get slung out of the pan if the frizzen doesn't fit tight, I annealed the frizzen and filed it and the pan so there is almost no light between then and then rehardened and annealed the frizzen.  I did a slight amount of tuning to it.  What I'm not sure about is I think the mainspring is not as strong as on my first Bess and I may/will probably have to address that. 
Gus   

[Artificer]

Gus,  I believe 1095 is common for modern frizzens.   However,  I also stock a lot of 1095 for frizzens, springs, and tools that I make.   

Thanks Mark,

That is definitely something I will store for future reference.
Gus

[J.D.]

Gus,  I believe 1095 is common for modern frizzens.     

In my limited experience, American made  frizzens are made of 1095, but European made frizzens are usually case hardened, mild steel.  some of the more cheaply made European frizzens are barely hardened.

J.D.