Hawken Under rib

[A. Cooper]

I trying to sort out the proper Hawken under rib configuration. The top of the rib is flat but tapered to match the flats of the barrel. Are the sides always flat inclined planes or can they be concave and still be correct? The bottom is concave to match the ramrod thimbles as far as I know. Are the thimbles just soldered on the rib or can they be counter sunk on to the rib such that the inside diameter of the thimble is flush with the concave bottom surface of the rib?
Id like to thank everyone for responding to my previous post. Arlin

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Arlin, I brought a recent subject similar to your question to the top as i think it will answer some of your questions.  The two ribs I bought recently from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply are milled out and are as close to historically correct as is available commercially, AFAIK.  They also have concave milled sides as you can see in the pictures of the thimble tutorial late in  the thread.  When I was at that stage in the current build on the bench, I studied dozens of images in Jim Gordon's wonderful book, or original Hawken half stocked rifles, to see how the ribs were finished.  Almost all had the sides filed flat, with only a couple having concave sides, and even then, they were very shallow.  The thimbles were inlet into the rib as I have demonstrated in the thread I referred to.  I made no attempt to taper the ribs to match the bottom flat of the barrel.  Being milled out hollow, they simply connect with the bottom and side angle flats of the barrel, and are quite secure.  Throughout all of the processes of building this rifle including drilling the rod hole through the barrel thimbles, and clamping the barrel in the vise, the rib has not become loose nor has moved at all.  The rivets are definitely working as they should.

[Longknife]

Taylor, That's very interesting. Here is a picture of an S. Hawken St Louis rifle that I was recently able to inspect and it shows the shape of the under rib, concave on both sides and concave where the ram rod rests. On this rifle the muzzle end of the rib has a half moon cut out filled with solder but upon pulling the barrel and looking at the other end the rib appears to be solid. The rod pipes are soldered directly to the rib and fit nicely into the concave surface with out any extra fitting done. The rib is attached with 3 screws (or rivets?) that have their heads filed off  The first pipe is 4 1/4 inches from the muzzle and the middle pipe centered between #1 and the entry pipe.



Here is another rifle marked S. Hawken St Louis, that was auctioned recently. Its hard to see but if you blow up this picture the rib appears to overlap the flats with that concave moon cut out filled with solder....?



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That being said I have pictures of yet another Hawken rifle that I do not have permission to post  and the rib does not overlap the flats, the sides of the rib appear flat with a very slight concave surface where the ram rod sits. So it seems there are three ways to mount your rib....confused? I AM!!!!....ED

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is really great information.  I have only seen one original Hawken rifle in person, and frankly, don't think I checked it for these features.  When one is presented with a beautiful forest, one sometimes forgets to check out the trees.
As I said, the images from Jim Gordon's book is what I was basing my comments on, and for the most part, the ribs appear to be flat sided.  Whether the ribs are cut out to receive the thimbles is impossible to determine from the photos.  I do it that way 'cause it makes a nicer job, but it may not have been a Hawken bros' practice.  Sometimes we have a tendency to guild the lily.
The rib being solid is a real surprise to me.  Why would they go to the bother of milling out a crescent at the muzzle, just to fill it with solder?  I have examined lots of under ribs from that time period that have been hollow end to end - apparently formed from sheet or milled.  I just assumed this was the case with the Hawken's rifles.
The Hawken Shop in the 70's supplied a rib with their kits that was solid with a little crescent milled out to simulate the hollow rib.  Authentic to the period - didn't think so, but perhaps I'm under an illusion.

And it's always great to see more images of original rifles.  Thanks for that.

[Don Stith]

Ed
 Can you share other pictures of the rifle with solid rib at back  Would love to see the butt plate and lock/breech areas.

[d-a]

Could the under ribs have been hollow and closed off on both ends? Does the silver soldier on the originals actually serve a purpose to keep the under rib attached to the muzzle instead just for looks?

d-a

[Don Stith]

Sealing the muzzle end of the hollow rib is not unique to Hawken rifles.  The other end is usually left open

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I appreciate you jumping in here Don.  I would be surprised to find a solid iron rib on a Hawken rifle, but I like surprises.

On another topic (sorry) Don, can you tell me if cast nose caps were ever applied to Hawken's half stock plains rifles?  I went to a lot of trouble to get a MBS cap to fit a tapered 1 1/8" - 1" barrel and had to have steel added to the octagonal opening to increase the height so that the milled under-rib and the nose cap aligned.  At one point, I was about ready to throw in the towel and cast a cap, but the new owner wants case hardened furniture, and so I stuck with the steel one.

[Don Stith]

Taylor
If by cast you mean Pewter, I would be surprised if  it was used prior to Gemmer.  The few I have seen on verifiable Hawken plains rifles were obvious replacements.. The local guns had pewter nose caps that doubled as entry ports.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Don...that is as I thought.  Back in the late seventies and early eighties, when Hawken rifles were 'where it was at', I built rifles for a company here in town, and all of the nose caps were cast of high speed babit.  They looked fine, but now I know the error of my ways.  Thanks again for the quick reply.

[J. Talbert]

Taylor ,
I'm confused when you say that the owner wants case hardened furniture.  Does that include the nose cap which appears to be already riveted  in place 

Just wondering,
Jeff

[Herb]

Here is Jim Bridger's rifle in the Montana Historical Society Museum in Helena.


A J&S Hawken rifle in the museum.

[Dphariss]

Taylor
If by cast you mean Pewter, I would be surprised if  it was used prior to Gemmer.  The few I have seen on verifiable Hawken plains rifles were obvious replacements.. The local guns had pewter nose caps that doubled as entry ports.

The large bore J&S pistols have white metal forend caps but they could have been formed from silver sheet I suppose or cast. They look like they are similar to the steel ones on the 1/2 stocked rifles. I have only seen photos of course.
I recently "found" a S. Hawken marked rifle in "The Peacemakers" by Wilson, which has a number of Hawken marked rifles in it much to my surprise given the title and cover. Its described as a 70 caliber rifle, probably 18 pounds or so by its looks, turned for a picket bullet starter, rod pipes dovetailed into the barrel, no keys at all so I assume the forend is held by a screw(s) run into pipes under the forend and it has squirrel rifle type forend cap of white metal that the rod passes through. It was in the Theodore Rooseveldt collection and it was attributed to Kit Carson. Being its a "S" marked gun it could easily be a Gemmer. But then it might not be. All the technology involved was known before Sam passed including the tang sight. Had a rib been used the forend would have been very thick vertically and the rifle would have suffered stylistically as a result. Its a pretty neat answer to a massive 1/2 stock rifle.
We doubt we will ever know who really built it, could be Gemmer but.... It is an interesting rifle in any case that would be a hoot to really get to study.

Dan

Opps meant to type "before Jake passed".

[Don Stith]

 Dan
Interesting that you should bring up that rifle. It got discussed over beers a few times in St Louis.  The furniture, architecture and thimble attachments are identical to those used by Blickensdoerfer and Schilling. They were contemporaries of Gemmer and Dimick in St Louis. Once missed a chance to buy a 50 cal. twin of that rifle in the 1980's.  The story we made up went something like this.
 A fellow walked into Gemmers shop looking for a large bore gun. Not wanting to miss a sale, John sent a boy around to B&S shop to see if they had anything on hand. Took just a minute to grab the old Hawken stamp and bang it into the top flat and money was exchanged. Best we could come up with .
 Sometimes think I have been around this stuff too long.  Most of the Hawkens in that book were in collections of friends. You get to see them a little closer than what the museums let you.

[Dphariss]

It is an interesting rifle to be sure. And I can see why it was made as it was. As I pointed out if the typical rib had been used then the rifle would have been far too deep in the forend and the lock would have looked too small or out of place so it was a good answer to this problem. I used the same barrel attachment on a "Hawkenized" Trapdoor I made a few years back and it does a nice job of preloading the barrel and the owner is very pleased with its accuracy.
I bought this book from a friends estate IIRC and just put it on a shelf based on the title, 6-9 months later I was looking through books to take to our coming guild meeting and opened it up and found Hawken rifles. Better yet nice photography, and a nice shot of the big J&S pistols which are on the fast track right now, #2 in line.... If I can stop myself from making them flintlock   (Its a weakness....)

I have always had a weakness for the Hawken its the epitome of the American ML hunting rifle. They were generally well shaped and well put together with quality parts.  But the brothers were obviously influenced. Perhaps in part by the 1803 HF service rifle and surely by the English rifles of late 18th and early 19th c.

I only wish that the bullet moulds and the starter for this heavy rifle were available. If it really did shoot a picket it would weigh something near 2 ounces I suspect. Given that many picket rifles shoot best with heavy for the bore size charges in relation to bore size it really makes me wonder.
The next thing that makes me wonder is why Kit Carson would have such artillery. It would make an effective LR match rifle in the windy west. It could have been a Civil War sniper rifle but it shows little use for this application unless kept in a box all the time.
One can let his mind wander around all over the place with a piece like this. I honestly don't see a practical use for it other than a wall gun or match rifle. But people will order almost anything is they have the cash and the desire. Maybe someone just wanted to try it out? Wonder what the rifling twist is? If it were a gain it might tell use the Hawken shop did not rifle it. Unless Gemmer had a gain twist guide? Or they bought the barrel from someone who did picket bullets. But still with this bore size 48" would stabilize a 2 caliber picket easily. 

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Jeff, the nose cap is secured to the stock not with a rivet, but with a 10 x 32 tpi machine screw from the inside of the barrel channel.  It's head is only about 1/16" thick, is flat, and is countersunk into the wood.

[A. Cooper]

I'd like to thank everyone for the replys, all of which are usefu. But one thing leads to another. Looking at D. Taylor Sepergias nose cap leads me to wonder how to deal with that when I get there? Arlin

[J. Talbert]

Taylor,
Thanks for the explanation.

Jeff