Re: New Exhibits in Library 3/9/2014

[nord]

Please enjoy our new additions...

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Far Western Exhibits
| | | |-+  Wirfflein, J.
| | | | |-+  Wirfflein 140216-3

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30033.0



+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Pennsylvania Long Arms Traditional Exhibits - (PA, MD, VA, WV)
| | | |-+  Sell, Frederick
| | | | |-+  Sell, Frederick 140215-1

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30034.0

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Pennsylvania Long Arms Traditional Exhibits - (PA, MD, VA, WV)
| | | |-+  Fordney, Melchoir
| | | | |-+  Fordney, M 140216-1

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30035.0

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Pennsylvania Long Arms Traditional Exhibits - (PA, MD, VA, WV)
| | | |-+  Dunmeyer, J
| | | | |-+  Dunmeyer, J 140220-1

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30036.0

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Rifles by Unknown Makers - Brass Furniture
| | | |-+  Unkn Upper Susquehanna 140216-4

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30038.0

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Rifles by Unknown Makers - Brass Furniture
| | | |-+  Upper Susquehanna 140216-2

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30039.0

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  Virtual Museum and Library - Antique American Firearms & Makers
| |-+  WELCOME TO The ALR Virtual Library & Museum ---->> CLICK HERE TO ENTER <<----
| | |-+  Pennsylvania Long Arms Traditional Exhibits - (PA, MD, VA, WV)
| | | |-+  Hunsicker, H
| | | | |-+  Hunsicker, Henry 140216-5

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30040.0

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

For your viewing ease, we have added the "click on " URLs to these Library additions. Again, please send us pictures of your guns to add to the collection in the Library and add comments to any exhibits that would further the study of the "American Longrifle" and its history
Thank you
The Museum Committee

[Robby]

Thanks For the reminder Hurricane!!!! I hadn't been there for a while, YEOWEE!!!
Some beautiful and unique New York guns, but that Amsden double is a real eye popper!!!

[Shreckmeister]

Wish there were more photos of the Frederick Sell to study.  A real beauty.

[Buck]

The Fordney rifle is not the only heavy barreled western style rifle by this maker that I have seen. The other is in his usual elaborate style. The owner is a Fordney family member and usually brings it to the KRA. I will approach him and ask if he might let me post some pictures.

The correct spelling is Werrflein or Wurrflein, this rifle was in my fathers collection for years. It is a great rifle, but doesn't fit "Longrifle" criteria architecturally. Maybe a new category should be made for Half stocked plains rifles of significant importance. The Silknitter that was for sale certainly was an important rifle of "artistic merit", this rifle doesn't fit that description but certainly is a historical tracking bench mark in the Long rifle migration.

Buck

[nord]

I believe this question was made clear when the rifle was placed on exhibit. We aren't all that comfortable with it. Then again there are mitigating details which have led us to this point. Time and reader input will determine whether this exhibit remains or is removed.

My personal opinion is that each submission should be reviewed on a case by case basis. Some will probably be nominated for exhibit but most will be declined. This isn't to say that we don't appreciate all fine rifles, only to say that the majority of this type don't generally fall within our stated area of interest.

The door is open to anyone wishing to develop and administrate a new class of exhibits within the Virtual Library & Museum. Bear in mind that suggesting it be done and actually doing are two distinctly different things.

Any volunteers?

[Buck]

If it's in question then why has it made it this far? Again, bringing it to this point with the committees comments posted, and then shooting it down only gives the rifle a bad rep and disappoints another collector. I thought the concept of the forum was to preserve the interest, not extinguish it.
Buck

[nord]

Buck,

You interest and your comments are so noted. Thank you for your input.

[Buck]

Nord,
Like wise, thank you.
Buck

[.38 Large]

Enjoyed Wurflein rifle, and see a lot of interest in this type in the builders section.  At the forthcoming Ohio Longrifle show (Marietta) the majority of the rifles will be halfstocks.  I enjoy looking at the features of these "ubiquitous" rifles which makes each one unique- crooked wrist, drop at heel, furniture, etc.  I think it appropriate to offer occasional glimpses at the firearms of the later makers.

[Old Bob]

I might not be much help here in the question regarding displaying non-longrifles in the library, but I'll try to give my opinion. Since this is an American longrifle website, I suppose that only those rifles that fit that description should be included. However, if a  longrifle maker was known to have built Rocky Mountain, Plains Rifles, or target rifles during his career, I would have no problem with displaying his work, possibly in a sub- category covering non-standard rifles built by makers known for their longrifles. On the other hand, I still enjoy seeing any original even if it doesn't fit the criteria for the library but I know that you have to draw the line somewhere. In the case of the Wurrfflein rifle, if his output was principally half stock rifles, then maybe it doesn't belong. To be fair you would have to include scores of non-longrifle makers from PA and the surrounding states. That's my opinion for what it's worth.

[Buck]

.38 Large,
I think that they have their place of important significance in the evolution of the American firearm. This is where I have to agree with the committee, it is this type of rifle that signifies the demise of the Golden Age era of the Long rifle. I owned this rifle for 4 years and it was in the collection of my Father for many more than that, but I never considered it a "Long Rifle" nor did I ever consider it a "High Art Piece". The significance is the amount of provenance that the builder placed on the barrel, and that it was made specifically for the Chris Curry House in San Francisco, which was an exclusive Deringer Dealer on the West Coast. So from that there is a connection to Deringer who was a Gunsmith who produced rifles in the "Golden Era" of the Long Rifle. I am not familiar with their history (if there is any) only that I have seen several Deringer small arms with the same dye stamp (Chris Curry House San Francisco). Another great point of this rifle is the condition of the Bore, (there isn't a pit or blemish inside) I know that the new owner had plans to fire the weapon. I don't know that I would ban all half stock rifles from the library (many North Carolina rifles were half stocks, and I appreciate them also), I think this is a significant rifle due too the condition and provenance it has on the weapon. But it isn't a "High Art rifle from the Golden Age" so I am not sure where it belongs. I just don't think it belongs next to a Leonard Reedy or John Armstrong rifle, 2 different animals.
Buck

[mr. no gold]

In his work, CALIFORNIA GUNSMITHS, 1846-1900, Larry Shelton lists the Currys, Charles, Nathaniel and John, on pages 73-79. Charles opened the business and seems to have made some rifles and shotguns, but became a jobber and importer.  He died in 1863 and the business passed to his brothers who repaired guns, and may have even made a few, but mostly relied on imports for new pieces. They were an important feature in the far west up and down the coast and at least into Nevada They sold the business in 1886 to a man named Ladd.
Page 77 displays a rifle that is very much like this one, (the same gun?). Slotter & Co also made guns for Curry in addition to numerous others, including Webley.
Dick 

[Buck]

Dick,
Are you aware of any connection between Deringer and Wurfflein?
Buck

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

There should be no dispute about half stocks having artistic merit and being appropriate for this website. Please refer to this URL, a gun in the Library whose "twin" was/is in the collection of the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. Many of the Ohio half stocks, mentioned above, shown below, are also of the highest artistic merit ( see below). Also I recall no authoritative references to the fact that a " long rifle" is defined by full barrel length stock.

 Silas Allen: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8209.0

 Valentin Shuler: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2638.0

Hurricane

[mr. no gold]

Buck, outside out of the two companies working in Philadelphia, probably rather close at hand, you had Tryon and even the Kunz shop. There is a huge possibility that there were loose arrangements and partnerships going on. Shelton does not establish such relationships, however.
He does cite a San Francisco Business Directory for 1858 that offers, in additon to shooting supplies, Leman's, Wesson's, Wurfflin's, and Sharp's rifles. All sizes Colts revolvers and Derringer pistols. He opened his store in 1852. This is the first ad that lists product by name that Shelton has in his book. He does say that Curry was the sole west coast agent for Derringer's guns starting in 1858 and such guns are marked "CURRY, AGENT" on the barrels. In the 1860s they added Henry rifles to their stock as well.
With the gold rushes, the population of the west coast may not have been too far behind that of the east, so it was to the advantage of the Philly makers to provide guns to the west. And, it was a big deal for Curry to establish himself as sole dealer out here.
Hope this helps some.
Dick

[b bogart]

A question if I may, was there a rifle removed after this thread was started? I remember a Bethlehem? style and now I do not see it. Was I hallucinating?

[Old Bob]

There should be no dispute about half stocks having artistic merit and being appropriate for this website. Please refer to this URL, a gun in the Library whose "twin" was/is in the collection of the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. Many of the Ohio half stocks, mentioned above, shown below, are also of the highest artistic merit ( see below). Also I recall no authoritative references to the fact that a " long rifle" is defined by full barrel length stock.

 Silas Allen: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8209.0

 Valentin Shuler: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2638.0

Hurricane

That's fine by me. I built a rifle with a 38" barrel which other than being half stocked has all the characteristics of a common longrifle. How many old half stocked rifles began life as full stocks but sustained damage to the barrel or forestock? Like I said earlier, I'm happy to see them all.

[nord]

Nothing removed. The controversy is more about the elevation of a distinctly western rifle to the library. A fine rifle made by a PA maker, but not in the long rifle tradition.

Admin has made it clear that we have some issues with this nomination, however circumstances tend to lead us toward an exception in this case. Obviously opinions from members differ greatly and we're well aware of this fact.

Bottom line is that Admin has concluded that there is enough connection with the long rifle to present this exhibit.

[JTR]

There should be no dispute about half stocks having artistic merit and being appropriate for this website.
Hurricane

But there is.

I can see including rifles with all the architectural features of a fullstock, ie cheek piece and full patchbox, and made during the flint or flint/early percussion period, and if it makes a statement like the V. Schuler and S. Allen you refer too.
I don't believe a common run of the mill half stock rifle should be included in the library.

As for the definition of a Long Rifle, well it obvious it needs a long barrel. So how about using 40 inch barrel length for the cut off point for originally made half stock rifles?

John

 

[Curt J]

40 inches?  I have at least a dozen original fullstocks with barrels that are less than 40 inches long, let alone halfstocks.  There are several of my rifles, already in the Library, that would not meet this requirement. We already have regional categories, and I would think it should be understood that there are regional differences, as well as changes over time. If we are going to start turning away rifles that would be acceptable on a table at the KRA, maybe we need to re-think this.

[JTR]

So how about using 40 inch barrel length for the cut off point for originally made half stock rifles?
John

Curt,
I didn't suggest using the 40" length for full stock rifles.

I only mentioned 40" for original half stock made rifles to weed out the inclusion of the late percussion semi-production made rifles.

John

[Buck]

Dick,
Thank you, I appreciate the knowledge. Curt makes a valid point, and I have to agree. Though I am not on board as classifying them as "Long rifles" their significance is just as important in the evolution of the American Firearm.
Buck     

[Sequatchie Rifle]

That Wurrflein rifle has an mint or near mint bore!  It appear to have seen very little or no use, having rarely been shot.  It was a very well-cared for rifle!

[Hungry Horse]

 Andrew Wurrflein sold guns out here in California, but, I am not sure of who his agent was. Very possibly Nathaniel Curry & Bros. in San Francisco. I have no information that links Wurrflein, and Slotter. However, Slotter and company was  owned by either Henry, or Frederick, Slotterbeck, possibly both, and they worked for Henry Deringer before  going into business for themselves. They also were sued by Deringer for counterfeiting his pocket pistols. The agent they sold there "almost Deringers" through was the A.J. Plate and Company in San Francisco. Charles Slotterbeck, another brother, worked for Clabrough and Company, in San Francisco, before relocating to Lakeport California.

                      Hungry Horse