18th century barrel stamps

[Mike Brooks]

Obviously anyone who would engrave 'MANTON" on a contemporary lock plate is intending to deceive.
 Take a look at Gahagan's new Hudson river gun. Fakery or artistic expression?

[Bob Roller]

There are several MANTON marked cast steel lock plates available.I had some and never used them
and they now are in the hands of other owners.I thought they were too flimsy (thin) to mount a decent
 mechanism on.The only way to get that name off those plates will be a grinder or welding over them,
neither is a good idea.

Bob Roller

[Darrin McDonal]

I guess this leads us to "London". Now what do you do with that?

[Feltwad]

To fake the British proof marks on a modern repro is wrong  which seems to be the done thing in the States to a large number of builders of percussion and flint weapons .Here in the UK if this were done would be a criminal offence which could carry a prison sentence and certainly you would loose the shotgun and firearms certificate .
Feltwad

[FlintFan]

To fake the British proof marks on a modern repro is wrong  which seems to be the done thing in the States to a large number of builders of percussion and flint weapons .Here in the UK if this were done would be a criminal offence which could carry a prison sentence and certainly you would loose the shotgun and firearms certificate .
Feltwad

Good thing we don't live in the UK, and be subject to your firearm laws. 

[JTR]

Good thing we don't live in the UK, and be subject to your firearm laws. 

Flintfan, Making wise cracks back at our Brit friend isn't furthering the discussion here.....

John

[FlintFan]

Good thing we don't live in the UK, and be subject to your firearm laws. 

Flintfan, Making wise cracks back at our Brit friend isn't furthering the discussion here.....

John

Simply pointing out that we don't have any laws regulating the addition of antique proof marks to reproduction guns here in the US.  Implying anything beyond that was not intended. 

[Darrin McDonal]

Thank you guys. I appreciate the input. I got more answers than I would have thought and I learned a thing or two which makes it a good day.
Darrin

[tallbear]

I agree this is one of the most interesting discussions we've had where in a while.I think everyone's point of view is valid and appreciated. There is much to think about in regards to this thread from all perspectives.

Mitch

[smart dog]

Hi,
This is an interesting thread.  I guess for some old proof marks and maker's names are merely forms of decoration and for others they still represent their regulatory and legal functions.  I think the British proof marks are attractive decorations but I will never use them on any of my guns out of respect for their original regulatory meaning. Likewise, I would never consider having an old makers name on any of my locks unless he actually made the lock.  I don't want Joe Manton taking credit for my work  .  I'd have to sue him like so many others did in his lifetime.  If I get castings with the engraving of a name cast in, I fill the name with weld and file it flush.  Nonetheless, I really don't care if other makers use old proof marks or makers names as long as the gun is unambiguously marked as the product of the modern maker. 

dave     

[Mike Brooks]

chances are, the mantons didn't have anything to do with the locks that went on their guns anyway. They were generally farmed out to local lock makers and an out of house engraver probably even engraved "manton" on the lock.......Talk about "fakery"!

[Clark Badgett]

I can understand both sides of this debate. On one hand there are those that have a perceived "need" to have their reproductions be as close to original as possible, and that would include proofs and other markings on equipment, and then there is the entire fakery aspect. I can see a point where markings done in the style of the originals, but different in some way being the best option.

If you need British style proofings to help fill out a historic personal, then it would not be too hard to design veiws, proofs and makers stamps which look legitimate except under close examination. I am using Birmingham style views and proofs on my trade gun, but they are incorrectly sized, and my last name will be on the lockplate, I will also buy a CB barrel stamp done in era style, much like Mr. Rogers has done. The fox stamp is what I am debating since it was usually faked even then.

[KLMoors]

Doesn't the likelihood of someone believing the "fakery" is real come into this at some point?

Just because I dressed up as a Dr. Seuss character for a school assembly doesn't mean that I have to speak in rhyme for the rest of my life. My third graders knew it was pretend.

I think there are very few guns currently being made that could ever be confused with originals. Steel barrels, modern lock parts, machine made screws, stamped nose caps, spot welded thimbles, machine made bolts, the makers name on the top barrel flat, barrel makers stamps on a lower flat, etc. Even to my half educated eye, these things spell contemporary far more than "London" stamped somewhere.

IF someone used all hand made parts and an iron barrel, then I can agree completely with these worries. But, if there is no reasonable likelihood that someone will mistake a gun made in 2014 for one made in 1790, do we really need to worry about it? Let's face it, the guns most of us build are "pretend" from the get go. Sometimes I worry that we take ourselves a little too seriously in this hobby.

[jrb]

This thread got derailed from it's original question into the same old debate that seems to happen every couple years or more on all these gun websites, modern "fakery".
The man who first used the word fakery in this thread has apparently assembled a gun with a lock plate engraved or cast with the word "Manton", which seems to fit his definition of fraud. Can this be taken seriously?

It's probably time now for another "applied patina on contemporary assembled guns is fraud" thread.

How about some pictures of contemporary guns shown here on this website that will pass as originals?

[Gaeckle]

Just because I dressed up as a Dr. Seuss character for a school assembly doesn't mean that I have to speak in rhyme for the rest of my life.

Only if you want green eggs and ham

[Acer Saccharum]

The educated man is seldom fooled by fakery. He/she who has been around antiques long enough can tell what is real, what is not. 

The fool with money burning a hole in his pocket is the one who needs protection.



In this game, and in every other one, education is key to satisfaction and success.

[greybeard]

My 2 cents worth is perhaps only worth about a penny but I will stick to my belief that fake proofs are wrong on a gun that has not been tested at a proof house.
It's also decietfull.
    Bob

[Clark Badgett]

My 2 cents worth is perhaps only worth about a penny but I will stick to my belief that fake proofs are wrong on a gun that has not been tested at a proof house.
It's also decietfull.
    Bob

So if I designed my own personal proof marking and HP test every barrel and action I use, would I be decietful since I didn't use a royal proof house?

[galamb]

I don't know - it's OK to build a rifle that tries to mimic an original as close as possible - but if you throw a name or a mark on it that's NOT OK.

I guess it comes down to what any given person considers a "forgery" ??

[JTR]

The educated man is seldom fooled by fakery. He/she who has been around antiques long enough can tell what is real, what is not. 

You've obviously lead a sheltered life!

John 

[Bob Roller]

There has been more than one "educated"person fooled by a fake of any
and every kind.Years ago there was a man that produced pre civil war Colt revolvers and
was declared as an "Undesireable"element at any gun show he came to.
Major classic cars are also faked with doctored bodies and bogus bell housing numbers.
Another thing to remember,if you do have a genuine high dollar item for sale,conduct the transaction
on Monday if Bank Checks are involved. A $250,000 Packard was stolen like this with a fake bank check
because the transaction occurred on Saturday.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

I do lead a sheltered life.  

But you must admit if you're around the real thing long enough, you can spot fakery most of the time. The fakers are always honing their skills.