Author Topic: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns  (Read 16020 times)

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 11:25:19 PM »

First, cross-grain slices off a branch or log are going to crack.  Slices like that also have a habit of changing shape--expanding, shrinking in strange directions, twisting, etc.  These changes argue against using cross-grain slices of wood as an end plug. 
 

Habu,

Thank you for adding this information. 

Please understand I am not arguing or attempting to criticize you with the following quiry, but in my ignorance I’m attempting to better understand your point.  I do not want to make a huge mistake now that I would have to fix later.

I don’t have near the knowledge of turning wood or about some of the physical properties of wood that other people have, outside the use in gun stocks. 

Are you saying that the wood for end caps need to come from wood cut across the grain as in not along say the length of a board, but perpendicular to it?  If that is correct, I am very glad to know that before I cut some pieces of wood from some thick walnut boards I have.

Gus

Offline The Original Griz

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 11:46:24 PM »
First, I am not up on history enough to even take a wild guess as how they originals were made. There is a various number of ways that horn can be made hot enough to break its memory. I have used dry heat, that can be achieved by either a paint stripper gun, which takes me about 5-8 minutes till it gets soft enough for me to consider forming it. I also heated a couple over a burner on a stove, this takes longer. So, I guess it could have been done over a camp fire as long as it is kept moving around. Like I said, I am no history scholar.
As for wood usage, I use yellow pine from stair treads. For the pine caps that I make to fit the odd shaped horns.
I used both type of wood cuts, I turned caps from 3x3's centered in my lathe, and if cut round circles out of 2-3" thick planks and chucked them in my 4-jaw chuck an turned caps that way also. I don't know the technical terms for the direction if the grain. I can say that with the 20 years of horn making, I never had a cap split on me yet, at least no one ever told me about it.
I make sure my wood is dry as a popcorn @$#% and I seal them inside and out when they are applied to a horn.
As always, I am not an expert, I am just reporting my experience.
When a horn is dipped in the 330 degree lard, I always move it back and forth slowly and when it gets ready I will see a trail of very small bubbles trailing the horn as I move it back and forth.
Remember, NOT an expert. I am sure there is more experienced horners reading this saying what in the world is that crackpot Griz talking about, I am just telling what I do.
Ask 10 makers and you will probably get 10 different answers. ;)
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Offline Beaverman

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2014, 01:08:49 AM »
Gus, use a candy thermometer in your fry daddy, do not trust the dial thermometer on the fry unit, try dipping the horn end in the hot oil until you start to see a stream of bubbles coming from the horn, take out and try to insert sizer, if that does not work heat again for another 15 or so seconds and try again until the horn moves, leave it on the sizer until completely cooled, be careful and go slow, too long in the oil and you can delaminate the layers of hair, or worse wind up with horn chips! ( don't ask me how I know that one!)

Offline Habu

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2014, 01:09:10 AM »

Are you saying that the wood for end caps need to come from wood cut across the grain as in not along say the length of a board, but perpendicular to it?  If that is correct, I am very glad to know that before I cut some pieces of wood from some thick walnut boards I have.
Hmm. . . best way to explain is probably to go 'way back to the basics, to get our terminology on the same page. 

Picture a tree growing straight out of the ground.  If we cut the tree down by making a sawcut parallel to the ground, we are cutting across the grain.  If--starting at the cut and proceeding to the top of the tree--we saw the tree into boards, we are cutting with the grain.  (We could also saw the tree into slices across the grain, like cutting a salami.)  All this comes into play when we start working the wood. 

Depending on length (measured with the grain), slices of logs taken cross-grain (what I described earlier as being "like cutting a salami") have little structural strength.  A 1" slice of wood cut like this, that incorporates the center of a log or branch, is going to split due to the way the wood dries out.  The outer rings of wood dry--and shrink--before the interior.  Since the wood lacks the structural strength to compress the interior wood, the outer rings split.  These splits will often go to the center of the salami-slice of wood.   This is why slices of branches cut cross-grain make poor end plugs.  (Yes, for now I'm ignoring the interlocking grain of burls, and the interlocking grain of elm and the like.)

In my notes of observations of original powder horns, I've defined grain direction by looking at the end of the horn and noted what direction the grain showed across the opening.  A "face-grain plug" shows face grain, an "end-grain plug" shows end grain.  For this thread, I did a quick look through my file cabinet and found notes on about 60 non-commercially-made horns with strong attribution/history of use during the 1750-1790 period.  None of those horns used "end-grain plugs."  As I wrote before, I'm not saying it was never done, only that surviving horns with this grain orientation seem uncommon.  There could be multiple reasons for this.  Poor survival rate is one, another might be that the practice was uncommon. 

Griz gave a good example of exceptions to this when he wrote that he had turned caps from 3x3's centered in his lathe.  Turning wood between centers was a common period practice, and would result in a plug that I would categorize as an "end-grain plug."   It also requires the use of a lathe, and some experience using same; the early horns I've seen done like this seem to have been professionally-made. 

Of the horns I've examined that used plugs turned in this manner, there were several commonalities.  None used the center of the tree, which would reduce the likelihood of checking or cracking.  Judging by the amount of shrinking, as shown by the way the wood had dried out-of-round, almost all had been made from wood that was very dry to begin with.  The vast majority (meaning "I-can't-think-of-an-exception-but-there-probably-is-one-somewhere") of such horns seem to have plugs where the "length" (the dimension measured with the grain) is greater than 1/2 of the diameter. 

Griz also mentioned sealing the plug inside and out.  This slows shrinkage due to drying, and gives the wood time to "adjust" without splitting (or at least, minimizes the likelihood of splitting).  Of the hundred or so original horns I've seen with loose plugs, as well as a few plugs without horns, none have shown signs of being finished on the inside. 

Having spewed all this verbiage, I should probably point out some of the many shortcomings with my notes.  For one, I've made no attempt to include the many published horns unless I had the opportunity to examine them in-hand.  I don't live in the area where most of the surviving horns from the 1750-1790 era are found, so the number of these horns I've had the chance to study is limited.  And in my attempt to exclude fakes, I'm reasonably certain I've excluded original horns from study due to a lack of provenance. 

Offline Longshot

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2014, 03:14:22 AM »
Probably right about the oil, but once the plug is fit, 'memory' is just.......memory!

Micah2

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2014, 04:13:21 AM »
Habu,
Point well taken.  In fact, my own collection of originals show the grain in the manner you have suggested.
And thank you for your regard to the high likelihood that cross grain plugs, while inferior, were employed at some time or another.  Perhaps either shortened down after splitting or lost to the ages.

Now I have a wild thought.   Perfect circle could be scribed out of a pine plank with an awl and a pivot radius.  I know thi because I have countless times done this on 1/4 inch plywood and more often Sheetrock.
Pine would be an ideal wood for this technique.  It would take time but so did everything.  Just a thought.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2014, 04:39:04 AM »
Griz is right on with the yellow pine stair or ladder treads...it is what I was taught to use too...I will use it for flat or slightly domed plugs, but still like to turn them from walnut or maple.

As for branches...even when bone dry, wood shrinks and swells fairly evenly along its grain with the seasons...but since there is naturally way more wood in the outter rings of the branch cause its bigger around...these outter rings will travel (shrink and swell) much more than wood in the the center of the branch. Thats just because there is less wood in the center to swell and shrink...As the outter rings shrink around a center that is shrinking less, the wood compensates and cracks (cheques) unless you drill a big hole out of the center so the outter rings can compress around nothing. Leaving such a hole in the center of your horns plug is pretty counter productive...so not too many old horns are found with branch plugs, and if they are, they are usually cracked. Note: this is the same reason wide non-quarter sawn boards can "cup".

I have seen a few branch plugs in old horns that were not cracked , but Im not sure if this was luck or a better knowledge than I have about branch sellection. With out that knowledge, it seems sawing or turning a plug from board stock is the way to go.
tc
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 04:46:48 AM by T.C.Albert »
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dlbarr

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2014, 10:03:52 AM »
First plug I ever did was pine, I'm sure. I was much, much younger having more time and little money, I just picked up a piece of 2x4 scrap and carved out the plug. All the rest have been walnut and I did make a set of "rounding cones" out of mahogany. Should try something different in the future.

Interesting thread....

Offline The Original Griz

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2014, 10:40:53 AM »
TC, you drilled it (no pun intended) but that was funny...
anyway. The "whiter" outside rings of a log are what is known as sap wood, that is why it is a wider grained wood, that is the route that the sap travels up a tree to feed the leaves or fruit during growing season, not a good choice for building anything out of and if let out to the weather, sap wood will rot in no time at all. The center of a log is referred to heart wood, this place is where all the rings come together and they are all trying to go their own way and because they are so close they will crack and completely break a board in half  that is cut from heart wood. that is why sawmillers will usually slab the sap wood off and the heart wood will usually become a 4x4, 2x4 or some kind of blocking wood that has no or little value, now the stuff in between the sap and the heart.... thats the money wood.... this is referred to the grade wood provided it has no knots and is a nice straight grain. This also describe the wood wanted for end caps for the powder horns.

disclaimer; I am not an expert:) seriously, this is just my findings and opinions.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 10:42:27 AM by The Original Griz »
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2014, 10:54:10 AM »

As always, I am not an expert, I am just reporting my experience.
When a horn is dipped in the 330 degree lard, I always move it back and forth slowly and when it gets ready I will see a trail of very small bubbles trailing the horn as I move it back and forth.
Remember, NOT an expert. I am sure there is more experienced horners reading this saying what in the world is that crackpot Griz talking about, I am just telling what I do.
Ask 10 makers and you will probably get 10 different answers. ;)

Griz,

I TRULY appreciate you writing all that out.  The way you described cutting the plugs from the stair treads was easy to follow and that is a gift in itself.

The information on keeping the horn in the hot lard until small bubbles arise is priceless information for me as I have never used that method.  Thank you.  

Thanks again for so freely sharing your knowledge.
Gus

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2014, 11:01:41 AM »
Gus, use a candy thermometer in your fry daddy, do not trust the dial thermometer on the fry unit, try dipping the horn end in the hot oil until you start to see a stream of bubbles coming from the horn, take out and try to insert sizer, if that does not work heat again for another 15 or so seconds and try again until the horn moves, leave it on the sizer until completely cooled, be careful and go slow, too long in the oil and you can delaminate the layers of hair, or worse wind up with horn chips! ( don't ask me how I know that one!)

Thank you for this information. 

A lot of times the MOST valuable information is on what can go wrong and how it can go wrong.   Though knowing what can go wrong won’t keep one from making some mistakes, at least I’ve found it can help ensure I don’t make ALL the mistakes when first attempting something.  Grin.

I have been way too intimate with Mr. Murphy and his Law over the years when I did not know as much about what could go wrong.

Thanks again for these tips.
Gus

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2014, 11:43:19 AM »

Are you saying that the wood for end caps need to come from wood cut across the grain as in not along say the length of a board, but perpendicular to it?  If that is correct, I am very glad to know that before I cut some pieces of wood from some thick walnut boards I have.
Hmm. . . best way to explain is probably to go 'way back to the basics, to get our terminology on the same page. 

Picture a tree growing straight out of the ground.  If we cut the tree down by making a sawcut parallel to the ground, we are cutting across the grain.  If--starting at the cut and proceeding to the top of the tree--we saw the tree into boards, we are cutting with the grain.  (We could also saw the tree into slices across the grain, like cutting a salami.)  All this comes into play when we start working the wood. 

Depending on length (measured with the grain), slices of logs taken cross-grain (what I described earlier as being "like cutting a salami") have little structural strength.  A 1" slice of wood cut like this, that incorporates the center of a log or branch, is going to split due to the way the wood dries out.  The outer rings of wood dry--and shrink--before the interior.  Since the wood lacks the structural strength to compress the interior wood, the outer rings split.  These splits will often go to the center of the salami-slice of wood.   This is why slices of branches cut cross-grain make poor end plugs.  (Yes, for now I'm ignoring the interlocking grain of burls, and the interlocking grain of elm and the like.)

In my notes of observations of original powder horns, I've defined grain direction by looking at the end of the horn and noted what direction the grain showed across the opening.  A "face-grain plug" shows face grain, an "end-grain plug" shows end grain.  For this thread, I did a quick look through my file cabinet and found notes on about 60 non-commercially-made horns with strong attribution/history of use during the 1750-1790 period.  None of those horns used "end-grain plugs."  As I wrote before, I'm not saying it was never done, only that surviving horns with this grain orientation seem uncommon.  There could be multiple reasons for this.  Poor survival rate is one, another might be that the practice was uncommon. 

Griz gave a good example of exceptions to this when he wrote that he had turned caps from 3x3's centered in his lathe.  Turning wood between centers was a common period practice, and would result in a plug that I would categorize as an "end-grain plug."   It also requires the use of a lathe, and some experience using same; the early horns I've seen done like this seem to have been professionally-made. 

Of the horns I've examined that used plugs turned in this manner, there were several commonalities.  None used the center of the tree, which would reduce the likelihood of checking or cracking.  Judging by the amount of shrinking, as shown by the way the wood had dried out-of-round, almost all had been made from wood that was very dry to begin with.  The vast majority (meaning "I-can't-think-of-an-exception-but-there-probably-is-one-somewhere") of such horns seem to have plugs where the "length" (the dimension measured with the grain) is greater than 1/2 of the diameter. 

Griz also mentioned sealing the plug inside and out.  This slows shrinkage due to drying, and gives the wood time to "adjust" without splitting (or at least, minimizes the likelihood of splitting).  Of the hundred or so original horns I've seen with loose plugs, as well as a few plugs without horns, none have shown signs of being finished on the inside. 

Having spewed all this verbiage, I should probably point out some of the many shortcomings with my notes.  For one, I've made no attempt to include the many published horns unless I had the opportunity to examine them in-hand.  I don't live in the area where most of the surviving horns from the 1750-1790 era are found, so the number of these horns I've had the chance to study is limited.  And in my attempt to exclude fakes, I'm reasonably certain I've excluded original horns from study due to a lack of provenance. 

Habu,

WOW!  What a SUPERB read!!  You not only explained the “how” of doing it, but as if not more importantly (at least to me) the why of doing it!!

Since I’ve only turned a couple of pieces of wood in a lathe and that was over 35 years ago, I found the part about turning a piece of wood that was not from the center of the tree most informative.   I was trying to sort it out in my head that legs were often turned for furniture in the 17th century and how that might/would weaken them.  However, as you mentioned in an earlier post, having split or riven the wood along the grain, the turning would not align with the center of the log.

Your mention of finding few original pieces with “end grain” end plugs made it easy for me to understand what you wrote.  I have not had the opportunity to study as many original horns as you or others and I admit I did not really pay attention to the grain structure in the end plugs.  However, after you mentioned not seeing many with end grain, that hit home and I don’t think I’ve ever seen one so made.  Now I know why.

Looking back to the 70’s when I last made some complete horns, I remember I did not have a lathe and purchased different sized turned end plugs at Friendship, IN for them.  Good thing the folks who turned those plugs knew how to correctly orient the grain! 

I have one horn that I drilled the spout hole and cut the rear end off back in the early 80’s.  I even began shaping the spout end like a French and Indian War Era Horn, though I never finished as I was waiting to get a plug for it.   (Now I know I should have waited to do that part.)   I inherited a good deal of black walnut from my Grandpa’s Estate in the late 80’s.  There is one board that is about 3 ½” square that I had planned on getting turned for the end plug.  Now I know NOT to do that.  Thanks to you and Griz.   There also is a shoe box full of thick board sections that will make great end plugs with the grain oriented in the correct manner.  I have been saving them and really did not know what to use them for until this thread. 

Grandpa helped me drill and cut my first horn back in the 70’s, though he had never made one before.  Using his wood to finish this horn will be very special to me and hopefully one of his Great Great Grandsons I will leave the horn to when my time comes.  So I hope that conveys how grateful I am for the information.

Gus

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2014, 11:45:38 AM »
Griz is right on with the yellow pine stair or ladder treads...it is what I was taught to use too...I will use it for flat or slightly domed plugs, but still like to turn them from walnut or maple.

As for branches...even when bone dry, wood shrinks and swells fairly evenly along its grain with the seasons...but since there is naturally way more wood in the outter rings of the branch cause its bigger around...these outter rings will travel (shrink and swell) much more than wood in the the center of the branch. Thats just because there is less wood in the center to swell and shrink...As the outter rings shrink around a center that is shrinking less, the wood compensates and cracks (cheques) unless you drill a big hole out of the center so the outter rings can compress around nothing. Leaving such a hole in the center of your horns plug is pretty counter productive...so not too many old horns are found with branch plugs, and if they are, they are usually cracked. Note: this is the same reason wide non-quarter sawn boards can "cup".

I have seen a few branch plugs in old horns that were not cracked , but Im not sure if this was luck or a better knowledge than I have about branch sellection. With out that knowledge, it seems sawing or turning a plug from board stock is the way to go.
tc

Thank you for your thoughts and information.  I do appreciate it.
Gus

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Re: Questions on wood/s used for Powder Horns
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2014, 11:58:11 AM »
TC, you drilled it (no pun intended) but that was funny...
anyway. The "whiter" outside rings of a log are what is known as sap wood, that is why it is a wider grained wood, that is the route that the sap travels up a tree to feed the leaves or fruit during growing season, not a good choice for building anything out of and if let out to the weather, sap wood will rot in no time at all. The center of a log is referred to heart wood, this place is where all the rings come together and they are all trying to go their own way and because they are so close they will crack and completely break a board in half  that is cut from heart wood. that is why sawmillers will usually slab the sap wood off and the heart wood will usually become a 4x4, 2x4 or some kind of blocking wood that has no or little value, now the stuff in between the sap and the heart.... thats the money wood.... this is referred to the grade wood provided it has no knots and is a nice straight grain. This also describe the wood wanted for end caps for the powder horns.

disclaimer; I am not an expert:) seriously, this is just my findings and opinions.

Griz,

Your post brings back cherished memories of my Grandpa in the late 50’s and 60’s.  He had already retired as a machinist working for the Pearl Button Factory in town and had begun making furniture to “keep busy.” 

He often went to great lengths to get walnut trees that had grown  in people’s yards for decades and had to be cleared out.  He ensured any nails or other metal objects were out of the logs before he took them to the sawmill.  Of course, even then most sawmills did not want to saw up trees grown in yards, but he knew a couple of places that would still do it for him.  I remember one time in the 60’s he was so tickled to get three large diameter trees as he “only had about half a trailer full of walnut left and did not want to run out.” 

Thanks for bringing back some cherished memories.
Gus