"German" Engraving

[KLMoors]

Hi folks. I've got a question. What books or other resources have you all found helpful for images of Germanic gun engraving from the late 18th C.?

I am not looking to replicate the fantastic engraving found on the top end guns of the time, but am looking to create some simple " Americanized" motifs to use on my early step wrist/toe guns.

I am getting a pretty good feel for the English style from that period, but I lack the resources to wrap my head around the differences between the English and Germanic styles from that period.

There is very little engraving on the Moravian guns, and I have the KRA book and CD on those. "Great British Gunmakers..." has lots of images of English motifs, and was a huge help to me for those, but I need something similar for the motifs most common in Germany at the time.

I also have the two Dover publications of Victorian Floral Motifs but those seem to be later.

Any thoughts?

Thanks! 

[pbigham]

  If Chambers still has it available Steinshloss-Fajerbuchsen by Erhard Wolf

[smart dog]

Hi KL,
Everyone, German, British, Russia, Spain, Belgium, Italy, etc were influenced by French designs.  It is less a difference in motifs rather a difference in exuberance of decoration.  The Brits were a bit restrained, the Italians simply could not help themselves and heaped on gobs of French-inspired decorations.  The Germans, particularly under Frederick the Great were infatuated with French art, style, language, and literature, but not French politics.  I think German guns had classic French rococo designs, maybe more frequent use of hunting scenes (often with boars), and possibly a little soft porn.  I believe, that would be about right.  Certainly, Wolff's book would be a great asset.

dave

[Acer Saccharum]

Check Raspla's site on Facebook. He's got an incredible collection of photos and links to museums, his own work, and original stuff. Click here, if you dare enter the world of FB: https://www.facebook.com/bolek.maciaszczyk

There are a number of auction sites, one of them is Bolk Antiques, for which I cannot find the link to presently.

A link to a fabulous engraved wheellock: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202667044570615&set=a.10202667044410611.1073741835.1033231050&type=3&theater

[jerrywh]

There is no better source or German 18th century engraving that I know of than the Jaeger book sold by Jim chambers.  I agree with Smart dog with one addition. The Russians made as good a guns as the French and Germans if not better as far as the art work goes. There are two good books on them. One is guns from the hermitage,. the other is [fine arms from tula].
  There are some vague differences between the engraving styles but most people cannot tell the difference. German engravers had a few oddities in there designs. More hunting scenes and the inclusion of some odd angles in their rococo scroll work. Also the Germans incorporated a lot of complex moldings. You can see these complex angles moldings  in this photo of a section of Jaeger barrel. Also the use of panels at times. You don't have to do the gold either. But beware it is addictive.
  Remember you can simplify some of these features by not doing them in relief and just shading rather than chiseling to shape. If Jim or anybody objects to the use of this photo please remove and I will replace it with a gun I am working on now.
 http://jwh-flintlocks.net/German-Engravged-bl.jpg

[Bill Paton]

Steinschloss-Jagerbuchsen (Flintlock Hunting Rifles) by Wolf has a wonderful English translation one can purchase with it for about $35. The English translation without photos was done by Eric Bye, author of the fine new "Flintlock" how-to book. He can be contacted through the NMLRA and will know other sources of the Wolf book if Chambers is out of them. It is a great read and reference, with lots of interesting history of shooting and hunting in the German States, along with wonderful photos. I strongly recommend the tag-along English copy for those who don't read German well.  Bill Paton

[KLMoors]

Lots of great suggestions, thanks!

Jerry, that picture you showed is what I imagine when I think "German" - - more objects, more animals, and some different leaf shapes, when compared to English engraving from the period. Like Dave said, the English stuff feels more stretched out and flowing, at least to my eye.

I'm going to send an e-mal to Jim and Barbie and see if they still have that book. (I have Shumway's book on Jaegers, but the pictures don't show enough detail for the engraving.)

Acer I'll get my wife's facebook password and wander around his page.

Thanks all!

Ken

[Chris Treichel]

If you want to see lots of high detail pictures I would suggest going to the German auction house http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/ and taking a look around their closed out auctions... there must be thousands of high resolution pictures of European guns in there. FYI you can change the text to English by clicking on the English flag in the top left corner of the website.

[Jim Kibler]

A few other sources are the Herman Historica Auction site and Shumway's article's on Germanic guns.  The Herman Historica website shows images of guns from many past auctions and is a fantastic source.  One nice thing about the guns Shumway included in his articles, is that they aren't all over the top, high end guns and some relate well to the longrifle.

[Hemo]

Check Raspla's site on Facebook. He's got an incredible collection of photos and links to museums, his own work, and original stuff. Click here, if you dare enter the world of FB: https://www.facebook.com/bolek.maciaszczyk

There are a number of auction sites, one of them is Bolk Antiques, for which I cannot find the link to presently.

A link to a fabulous engraved wheellock: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202667044570615&set=a.10202667044410611.1073741835.1033231050&type=3&theater

Here is the link to Bolk Antiques, a Dutch site.
http://www.bolk-antiques.nl/index.cfm?page=collection&cat=1209&subcat=2186&catname=Antique%20Pistols
This particular link is to pistols, and they do have beautiful high-res color photography taken of their pistols in multiple angles, with magnification. I've used this site extensively to get ideas for early 18th century engraving and carving. Lots of German stuff, as well as Dutch and other european guns, not many american. From this site you can also go to long arms.

Hemo

[Acer Saccharum]

You gotta ask yourself to what level of 'Germanic' engraving you want to go, because there are endless variations on the themes, and endless techniques to learn. I won't live long enough to learn everything I set my sights on. So a realistic focus is important.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Hayward wrote in his book "Art of the Gunmaker Vol 2" that Germanic and Austrian gunmaking were in serious decline during the latter half of the 18th century.  In fact, the number of makers that were widely recognized and regarded was so few compared with those in France and Britain, that you might be pressed to recognize a "Germanic" style with respect to engraving.  When a wealthy client wanted a fine gun, he either ordered it in the "Paris" or "London"  styles or bought it directly from Paris and London makers.  Those 2 cities dominated the European gun market at the time.  My own limited observations suggest to me that high-end Germanic makers tended to follow French fashions and lower-end provincial makers didn't engrave at all or have ready access to engravers.  They carved wood, which has very strong Germanic traditions, but the metal was left blank.  As I mentioned before, there were lots of rococo shells and scrolls, hunting scenes and possible strapwork borders, which were a carry over from the great Baroque wheellock days.  Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790" has several good photos of German-made guns and it is a bit hard to identify a distinct German style in the engraving, when there is any.  Wood carving is another matter.

dave

[jerrywh]

You gotta ask yourself to what level of 'Germanic' engraving you want to go, because there are endless variations on the themes, and endless techniques to learn. I won't live long enough to learn everything I set my sights on. So a realistic focus is important.

   Tom. nobody really knows how long they will live. I never thought I would live past the age of thirty. Now I'm sneaking up on 80.  I'm too old to hold grudges. Lets forget the past.
  I have learned some valuable info lately. I have been studying ancient engraving methods for about 25 years now. In doing some of my latest works I have decided several things. In the 18th century engraving and etching were fairly old techniques.     
   On the photo I posted I am convinced that some of the engraving was done with fairly high magnification.  Perhaps not a microscope but a magnifying glass of about 12 power or more. Also some of the designs would have been extremely difficult to do with any kind of gravers that were available back then. All the engraving of this quality was done by professional gilded goldsmiths and engravers . Some of the fine work around the flowers and such was very likely done by etching out the background. Notice the flowers on the pot in the barrel decoration. They can hardly be recognized with the naked eye. Not likely done with no magnification.
I have scaled this gun out and it looks like the barrel diameter at the breach is about 1.200”   That would make those flowers about .100” at the most .125” in diameter. Not likely done with no magnification. Also the small spaces between the flowers on the garlands are extremely difficult to do to the depth that is needed to overlay gold between them even with gravers that have a tip of only .010 width. and a 25°heal . I have decided that the background was etched. That background has to be at least .015 deep and is appears deeper.

[Acer Saccharum]

Jerry, it's really good to be in conversation about this.

Etching techniques were used for patterning arms and armor. I don't know when decorative etching was developed, but long before that barrel you link to. In other words, etching was a well developed artform by the time that barrel was made.

[Sawatis]

This is really interesting...Are y'all familiar with any literature on the historical etching methods that were used to get a deep etch such as that shown on the Jaeger barrel...I've done a bit of light etching on blades before...but nothing that would get that deep.
John

[Chris Treichel]

While I agree with Smart Dog to some extent that after about 1640 most of Europe looked to France for high fashion... prior to that and at some points throughout the low countries Austria and Germany did deviate (Mozart's German language operas for example) and in guns rebelled against the French trends especially during wars with France where regional nationalism were at high points.  Also there were shifts in style from the mannerism, baroque, rococo, neo classism and romanticism which are seen in gun ornamentation as much as they are seen in clothing, house decorations, sculpture, painting etc. These were not independent developments.  

[Acer Saccharum]

That's an interesting perspective, Chris.

As far as etching goes, there are mold shops that specialize in acid etch 'machining'. I am sure it's proprietary, but I have seen acid cuts 1/8" deep or more done with acid etch. Somehow they prevent sidewalls from undercutting during the process. I can only imagine that the mask is re-applied on the sidewalls as the metal is cut down.

Chemical milling at Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_milling

[jerrywh]

 I often etch down to .010" with acid and for some reason it does not undercut the side walls very bad.
 Robert evans says he takes out background down to .015 or more with acid and it does not undercut the side walls. Personally I tink it might be neccessary to wash off the ground and redo the ground to get a real great depth.  I am conducting an experiment today. I will soon know.

[Chris Treichel]

Bolek posted this about a Tschinke (Silesian rifle) he is working on... perspective of stamps vs engraving... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=676101455781115&set=a.676087765782484.1073741850.100001438015344&type=3&theater

[Acer Saccharum]

His stamping in the traditional method looks very much like PA Dutch(Duetch) fracture art.

[KLMoors]

Interesting stuff on the etching. Never really thought about it.

Jerry, I too have wondered how they did some of the extremely fine work without some pretty good magnification.

To the folks who recommended Hermann Historica- YIKES! That site is full of ideas. Great stuff that will provide me plenty to chew on.

Jim, I went back and looked at the Jaeger articles. I had forgotten that there were some decent pictures in there. Even the castings can give me some ideas. Thanks for the tip to re-examine that.

Thanks all! Good stuff.

[Captchee]

Berry Lee Hand did a wonderful basic  tutorial some years ago over on the Steve Lindsey’s forum
 on acid etching
http://www.engravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=560&highlight=acid+etch

 well  for some reason i guess i dropped the rest of my post ?


Jerry .  I was trying to remember but it seems  you and I had a discussion on magnification over coffee ,  back when I was looking for a new scope . Was it you that told me that Zeiss had at one time a section which documented  magnification devices as early as the 17th century .  I seem to recall seeing   that section when I looked at their scopes .
  As such I cant  see why they wouldn’t have used some type of magnification , even higher magnifications to do some of the higher detailed work

[jerrywh]

Crude microscopes were in existence in the 1600's. http://inventors.about.com/od/mstartinventions/a/microscope.htm
 I do not think engraver were using them but instead were using minifying lenses. John Twig's inventory showed that he had 12 looking glasses in his shop and 7 lathes among other things. These looking glasses or magnifiers were large perhaps 10" in diameter and sometimes stood on a stand.
  Spectacles were made in about the 1600's also and there is no reason they could not have been made to any power required.
  As for the acid experiment I did yesterday. It did not work out as well as I expected and needs some more study. I etched down to about .010 on the first stage. There was too much undercutting in my opinion. but not enough to ruin the design. Also it is much slower than just taking the background down with gravers.