Author Topic: FAST twist??  (Read 9018 times)

Offline Longknife

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FAST twist??
« on: March 19, 2014, 06:04:07 PM »
OK...., We have thoroughly discussed the use and reasons for straights rifling but I am wondering the reasons for the fast twist rifling that is commonly found in European firearms. The reasons for my query is a a circa 1858 Austrian SXS rifle that I have. The 26 inch .63 cal  left barrel is straight rifled and the .63 cal. right barrel has a  1-26 twist in the 26 inch barrel. It has 12 groove rifling and fitted with a two leaf folding sight. Would this 12 groove rifling allow heavy charges and prevent stripping or was it customary to shoot lighter charges in these rifles? It seems at this later date of 1858 in England and America everyone was rifling these big bore gun with a slow twist for large charges and a flatter trajectory....Also I hear "rumors?" from time to time about Europeans  using over size balls and actually hammering them down with a mallet??....Ed  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 06:07:24 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 06:08:45 PM »
The fast twist is probably for shooting bullets... You wouldn't want that fast of a twist for a round ball. Sounds to me like a Buechsflinte/cape gun. The straight rifling being for shot.

Offline Levy

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 07:52:28 PM »
I have a military jaeger rifle that was originally flint (now converted) with a twist of one complete turn in its 29" length.  It is .58 caliber and has a two leaf back sight.  The seven groove rifling seems deep.  I think it was imported for use in  the Civil War.

James Levy
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Offline hanshi

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 12:04:21 AM »
If the rifling is deep enough a fast twist will also shoot prb accurately as well.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 01:46:56 AM »
There is a rhyme for fast twists and round balls. "Charge it lightly,patch it tightly" and it works.
I shot round balls from an Alex Henry barreled Whitworth using a .451 ball and 40 grains of DuPont 3fg
and a GI cleaning patch. It made a one hole group at 25 and 50 yards.
I have a friend who bought a 50 caliber fullstock "Traditions" muzzleloader and does anyone know how the barrel can be removed.The fore end cap SEEMS to be riveted to the barrel but maybe not. This is another clunker from Spain and I usually have no contact with this type of rifle.Any help would be muchly appreciated.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 09:53:40 PM »
OK...., We have thoroughly discussed the use and reasons for straights rifling but I am wondering the reasons for the fast twist rifling that is commonly found in European firearms. The reasons for my query is a a circa 1858 Austrian SXS rifle that I have. The 26 inch .63 cal  left barrel is straight rifled and the .63 cal. right barrel has a  1-26 twist in the 26 inch barrel. It has 12 groove rifling and fitted with a two leaf folding sight. Would this 12 groove rifling allow heavy charges and prevent stripping or was it customary to shoot lighter charges in these rifles? It seems at this later date of 1858 in England and America everyone was rifling these big bore gun with a slow twist for large charges and a flatter trajectory....Also I hear "rumors?" from time to time about Europeans  using over size balls and actually hammering them down with a mallet??....Ed  

Many European and English rifles have twists of one turn in the length of barrel.
So this rifle is likely a RB gun. However, it will likely be limited the charges similar to that used in a shotgun of the biore size. This was the problem with rifles used for heavy game. See Forsythe's " The Sporting Rifle and its projectiles". De Witt Baily in "British Military Flintlock Rifles" gives the twist of most of the rifles pictured and many are one turn in the barrel length of close to it. I think this was one reason the German rifleman imported for fight for the British were less effective than the Americans. Low velocity and high trajectory.
The hammering in oversized balls may have been done but its not the norm.
Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 08:04:34 AM »
Back in the late 70's, a large Museum in Indianapolis had a special exhibit of a Buckskin Coat" that was made for George Rogers Clark.  It was tailored and looked like a period Military"Regimental Coat, only done in buckskin. 

Other items they had in that area of the exhibit included a SHORT Jaeger Rifle.  It wasn't easy to see the bore, but the information card said the barrel was 19 inches long, about .65 Cal. and rifled with one turn in the bore.  It had a nicely made front and rear sight.   The lock area and butt were "normal size," but I just couldn't get over how short that barrel was.  In an unusual way, it reminded me of a Coach Gun. 

Gus


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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2014, 12:32:53 PM »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 03:48:05 PM »
Peterw,
Thanks for the input and diagram of that type of rifle.I seldom see them and
I think once in 50 years I had one in the shop.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 09:08:01 PM »
Many years ago, I attended a gun show - Calgary Alberta, I think.  There was a Jaeger rifle on display that had a bore greater than .60 cal and a rate of twist around 30".  The rifling made a complete turn in the length of the barrel.  I asked my boss, Don Robinson, what was the story on it, and he explained that hunting in many European countries during the era of the flintlock rifle, was done at what we would consider very close range, and of game that was relatively small compared to what we hunt in North America.  Take the Chamois for example:  it was hunted in the Alps of Switzerland and Austria in practically vertical terrain across canyons and narrow valleys where the range would be less than 100 yards.  The rifle was loaded with basically a pistol charge, the trajectory would have been enormous, and the big ball would do its lethal business effectively, on these goat like creatures.  There was no need for a high velocity, flat shooting projectile to be effective.  And we of this present age, have been corrupted by cylindrical conoidal small diameter bullets traveling at nearly four times the speed of sound, and whether we realize it or not, we're trying to get similar performance out of our muzzle loading rifles.  It is difficult to compare ballistics from 17th and 18th Century Europe, to that which was developed here, especially with the Western migration.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2014, 11:47:11 PM »
Forsythe also address how well the fast twist, light charges worked on game, from Stags wich were wounded more than not and collected with dogs,  to the Tigers and Buffalo in India which were not at all impressed.
The light charges needed for those fast twists, produces exceedingly high trajectories, making accurate fire beyond exceptionally close range rather impossible.
The might have worked OK on goats, but larger game demands more respect in my opinion, that is.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:47:36 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Longknife

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2014, 05:38:44 PM »
Thanks for all the replies. I have a .625 mold and will get some balls cast real soon. I will probably start at about 65 grains FF, an .018 patch lubed with BW and Olive oil and go up from there. I will be interesting to find out how much is too much for a fast twist RB barrel....Thanks, Ed 
Ed Hamberg

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2014, 06:51:42 PM »
Ed, it may sound ridiculous, but I'd start with around 25 grains, shoot a five shot group, change to 30 grains, shoot a new five shot group, etc, until you get up to about 80 grains.  I'll bet you find that the tiny charges will give you the smallest groups, but I could be wrong.  If you are still getting decent groups at 80 grains, keep adding powder until you no longer get good groups.  Your tightest groups will be obtained with a pure lead ball and a very tight patch soaked with lube.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2014, 08:19:27 PM »
I have a rifle with a 1/18 twist, .45 cal that I originally built for long range  target shooting [ 535 gr bullets was what I used]
That same rifle has won a number of 50 to 100 yd round ball target matches using only 25-30 gr of FFFg and a patched .445 ball.  It is amazingly accurate.  It totally surprised me.  It is now one of my favourite target rifles. Last match it shot a 49 3 X at 100 yds from prone . Target was the NMLA 200 yd target. 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 09:56:10 PM »
I did the same thing with an Alex Henry barrels Whitworth.A .445 round ball
and pillow ticking patch over 40 grains of DuPont 3fg and I won several matches
with it.

Bob Roller

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2014, 03:49:18 AM »
Do those fast twist barrels create more presure than slower twist barrels? If you were to shoot conicals through the fast twist barrels, will they erode the nipples faster?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2014, 04:46:09 AM »
The top of the line British and American long range muzzle loaders use a nipple with a platinum insert in the base with the flash hole drilled thru it.Yes,these fast twist,heavy bullet rifles are a breed far apart from the round ball rifles and are capable of landing 550 grains of lead on a target at 1000 to 1200 yards.
Loaded with a patched round ball and light powder charges,an ordinary nipple will suffice but may not last 10 shots with the full house Creedmoor loads.
Bob Roller

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2014, 05:48:00 AM »
Thanks Bob, I think I've read that befor but I was wondering about those rifles like Lymans Great Plains version with the faster twist shooting their Great Plains bullet and others like it. Does anyone who shoots that rifle and combo have excessive nipple burnout?  Do those Lyman fast twist barrels shoot the PRB with proper loades as good as their slow twist barrels shoot PRB?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2014, 02:24:48 PM »
Smylee,
Just WHAT does Lyman consider to be a FAST twist? When I think of fast twist muzzle loaders,I think of a 1 in 18 or 20 in twist and a 451 bullet either paper parched or grease grooved about 1.375 inches long.

Bob Roller

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2014, 02:29:07 PM »
I think the rifle they call their Great Plains Hunter has a 1-30 or something close to that. Slower than what you were thinking but too fast for larger hunting charges with a PRB.

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2014, 03:38:35 PM »
I learn something new every time I peruse this site.

Offline Daryl

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2014, 05:48:55 PM »
Lyman's fast twist barrel (Great Plains Hunter) has either a 28" twist or a 32" twist.  Green Mountain makes one of these twists and the Italians make the other - I am not sure which is which, but for a short full sized lead bullet like the Hornady, they should both work equally well, considering the standard .50 cal. Shiloh Sharps Twist was a slow 36" which shot VERY well with the 450gr.
Daryl

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dlbarr

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2014, 01:35:20 AM »
Lyman's fast twist barrel (Great Plains Hunter) has either a 28" twist or a 32" twist.  Green Mountain makes one of these twists and the Italians make the other - I am not sure which is which, but for a short full sized lead bullet like the Hornady, they should both work equally well, considering the standard .50 cal. Shiloh Sharps Twist was a slow 36" which shot VERY well with the 450gr.

Daryl, I have one of those GM barrels in .50 cal. It has a 1:28" twist and DOES shoot a conical bullet extremely well! I have never tried a RB in it, but think I will using some of the directives here in this thread.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2014, 02:35:47 AM »
I checked out Lymans web site and they listed a 1-32 twist, Pedersoli lists a 1-24 in a very similer rifle.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: FAST twist??
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2014, 03:42:26 AM »
Do those fast twist barrels create more presure than slower twist barrels? If you were to shoot conicals through the fast twist barrels, will they erode the nipples faster?

They erode nipples when shot in slow twists too.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine