Patching in Smoothbores

[ken]

I was wondering what people liked better , loose patch or tight needing a ball starter.  I am trying to get more accurate with mine . It is 60 cal , 20 guage. Worried about barrel whip.

[axelp]

I like the patch snug but no short starter needed. Seems to be fairly accurate that way. I have heard that some folks have really good results with no patch at all and just wadding fore and aft.

K

[Dan'l 1946]

 I agree. I like a load that I can thumb start. Accuracy is fine and fouling isn't a problem.
                                      Dan

[peterw]

I think a tight patched ball is much better. Loose patched ball in my musket is no much better than paper military style cartridges (but the barrel is cleaner).

Left:
- replica of Spanish infantry musket 1757( Ardesa .72 caliber, 44" barrel, no rear sight)
- 27 paper military style cartridges (108 grains of 2f BP, prime 2f BP, .69 ball, no grease)
- fast military shooting - 3 rounds per minute (in practice no less than 5 per 2 minutes)
- really bad weather (rain/wet snow, a few misfires, a few big delays)
- distance 50 meters
- diameter of black circle is 20 cm (8")
Right:
- the same musket, target and distance
- 77 grains of 2f BP
- .022" patch (wet 1/6 ballistol/water)
- .69 ball
- 4f prime
- 13 rounds, carefully aimed (offhand)

[axelp]

good shooting.

I can usually keep an open hand-sized group with my snug, but no short starter load. I do not shoot much really to be any better than that. I might get a few flyers outside that if I am yaking with buddys. I use the tangscrew slot as a sort of rear sight/guide but cannot say that I aim carefully... with a smoothbore with no rear sight, its a little more like an intuitive educated "point." for me anyways.

Shooting distance varies,  but I have hit things out to 80-100 yards, my usual distance for paper is around 50 paces give or take.

I use a .595 ball and whatever patching I happen to have in my bag-- I have never measured it. I use 65 or 70 gr of FF. I prime with same but sometimes I use FFFF.

My gun hardly ever misfires-- that big roundface chambers lock throws great sparks. I will clear the vent with a poke with a brass wire after a few shots.

If I am hunting, I will use homemade concoction of natural oil and beeswax lube. For paper punching or shooting steel gongs on trailwalks, I use spit.

K

[Artificer]

When I competed in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregates and similar matches with my 1970's vintage Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine.  Here were the accuracy loads I used with patched round balls.

Actual Bore Diameter - .753"
Ball Size  - .735"  (No one made molds for bigger balls then to my knowledge.)
Patch Thickness - .020"  (Though sometimes when it was VERY humid and hot, I had to go with .018" when the .020" patches could not be started with a short starter.)
Powder Charge - 70 Gr FFg, DuPont Powder ONLY!!  (Can't remember the other powder that was commonly available then, but it shoot POORLY in that gun.)
Pan Priming Powder -FFFFg

I agree a tight patched ball shot better, at least in that gun, than a looser patch that could be started without a short starter gave.

Gus

[hanshi]

#1.   A .605" WW bare ball will give dinner plate groups at 50 yards.  I put a card wad over 60 to 75 grains of 3F and seat a lubed cushion wad/ball/os card wad all as one unit.  Still get the occasional flier, though.

#2.   That same ball (WW .605") with a lubed .015" flannel patch does better but requires a short starter.  A .600" pure lead ball loads more easily but still requires a short starter.

#3.    A .590" ball (Jeff Tanner mould) and a lubed .015" ticking patch has given some impressive groups but needs more testing.  No short starter needed.  I have a rear sight on the smoothbore but fliers from all loads are still not that uncommon.

A few years ago I made a nice 20 yard running shot on a large doe using load #2.   
 

[Tom Cooper]

I like a tight ball patch combination,

19ga (.625 bore diameter) NWG  with a .600 ball, .026 denim patch, 70gr 2f

this was my first session with it

[Tom Cooper]

A radiused crown will help with the transition of a tight combination from the muzzle to the bore.

[satwel]

My 20 gauge Type D trade gun shoots best with a patch and ball combination that I can start at the muzzle with just thumb pressure. No short starter needed.

[Kingsman06]

Tom,

Who made the barrel and did the radius crown?

Dave Z

[Tom Cooper]

Dave,

The barrel is an Oregon Barrel Works, the radius was done by me with various grits of wet n dry sandpaper backed up with my thumb and lubricated with WD-40. Took about an hour or so twisting the barrel and my thumb in opposite directions and clocking the barrel a 1/4 turn about every 6 or 7 twists.

[Daryl]

Well done Tom. Here in my hand - and thumb cutting the crown on my .62 flinter SB.

[Daryl]

My gun is choked - about mid-way between IMP Cyl. and Modified - yet I use a .020" to .023" (what-ever's handy)patch and .595" ball.

At 25 yards I can keep them in an inch centre to centre off a rest, but at 50 yards I get flyers that make me want to only shoot shot in that gun - yes, now it is a shot gun only - and a GREAT one at that.  If I want to shoot larger balls than .62 - I'll use an accurate gun, my 14 bore rifle, and a delight it is, all the way to 300yards.

[hanshi]

This target of 10 shots at 50 yards has 8 shots in a 2.5" group; the two green holes are fliers.  It's a patched .600" or a WW .605" ball ??.  The load was 60 grains of JBP 3F.  Danged if I didn't go ahead and forget to write down the specifics.

[Vomitus]

  I like a heavier denim patch and a scaled down ball size,maybe even two ball sizes and let the heavier lubed denim take up the windage in the barrel. I have a long barreled 28 and my theory is that, I want the entire length of the bore getting cleaned and lubed and to do that, I need a thicker patch to deliver the goods,so to speak.The heavy patch needs a nudge with a starter, but goes down just fine with my tapered hickory rod. Shoots like a rifle,lol!

[iloco]

  I like a heavier denim patch and a scaled down ball size,maybe even two ball sizes and let the heavier lubed denim take up the windage in the barrel. I have a long barreled 28 and my theory is that, I want the entire length of the bore getting cleaned and lubed and to do that, I need a thicker patch to deliver the goods,so to speak.The heavy patch needs a nudge with a starter, but goes down just fine with my tapered hickory rod. Shoots like a rifle,lol!

I like your idea.
I had a 62 smooth bore built and the first two shots I had to drive a .600 ball with a thin patch.
 I am going to get me some .595 balls and use a thicker patch.  I believe this will load easier and let me use more lube to help with cleaning for next shot.

I am curious what others use in their 62 caliber smoothbore with regards to ball size.
My barrel  is a 44 inch colerain.

[axelp]

46" Longhammock barrel on my fowler. I usually use a .595 and a thick patch. But I have also used a .60 ball and thinner patch. So long as it goes down fairly snug it will work for me--- I do not use a short starter however. just a thumb.

K

[Tom Cooper]

I would think that many would probably get more use out of this thread if everybody would include bore diameter as well when giving their specific load data, just a thought.

[Tom Cooper]

Daryl,

I am using a semi-hard cast lead ball in my NWG with no rear sight, the hard cast ball is why I went with the muzzle treatment such as I did. I have not tried any other patch/ball combinations yet, I am pleased with where this thing shoots the cast ball, it prints the shot pattern a bit low @ 30 yards.

I am not even real interested in benching it yet as I don't want to jinx the off hand abilities.

[Kermit]

I would think that many would probably get more use out of this thread if everybody would include bore diameter as well when giving their specific load data, just a thought.

My thinking too.

[axelp]

my bore diameter is .62 and I shoot a .595 ball with a "thick enuff" patch. Loading is firm but I do not need to use a short starter. I know my load is tight enough because it feels right to me, and I get the accuracy I require (I usually hit what I point it at generally speaking) I am not a technical target shooter that shoots for score. I hunt and I casually shoot paper and steel. So what I require will be different than what others require.
K

[bob in the woods]

I have a 12 gauge [ .728 bore ] and a 10 gauge  [  .775 bore ] and after much experimentation, have settled on paper cartridges almost exclusively, since they shoot better than any combo of ball and patch I have tried.
In the 12, I use .690 ball.    In the 10, I use a .735.    After I make up the cartridges , I dip the ball end in melted soft lube of bear oil and beeswax.  The 10 bore is my go to gun, and I have absolute faith in it.  3 shots inside 3 to 4 inches off hand at 40 yds is a given. I've taken B. Bears with this , hunting from the ground, and they fall over within seconds.
For target shooting, I'll take my rifle,   but for the hunting I do in these northern forests, I pick my smoothbore.

[Vomitus]

  Iloco,
    I might check the bore size of that Colerain. Lots are true 20gauges and that is .615.
   Jus sayin.

[Artificer]

When I competed in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregates and similar matches with my 1970's vintage Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine.  Here were the accuracy loads I used with patched round balls.

Actual Bore Diameter - .753"
Ball Size  - .735"  (No one made molds for bigger balls then to my knowledge.)
Patch Thickness - .020"  (Though sometimes when it was VERY humid and hot, I had to go with .018" when the .020" patches could not be started with a short starter.)
Powder Charge - 70 Gr FFg, DuPont Powder ONLY!!  (Can't remember the other powder that was commonly available then, but it shoot POORLY in that gun.)
Pan Priming Powder -FFFFg

I agree a tight patched ball shot better, at least in that gun, than a looser patch that could be started without a short starter gave.

Gus

Just realized I did not mention how well that Navy Arms Brown Bess shot.  With that tight patch/ball combination, I could count on splitting the ball on the axe blade at 25 yards and smashing the clay pigeon on either side as long as I did not mess up the offhand shot. 

The furthest "unknown range" I ever shot that gun was at 73 yards on a 4" long Buffalo shaped steel  silhouette target that was made for .22 rim fires.  The guy who set up the Mountain Man Aggregate that day put the target there to test our ability to hit something at an unknown range like one would experience in hunting.  The steel silhouette was placed on the ground and we shot offhand at it.  My ball ripped a divot in the ground 4" from it and none of we maybe 15 shooters that day actually hit the target. 

The furthest known range I shot that gun was at 100 yards Offhand  at plastic one gallon milk jugs, as those were the targets we used in those days for that distance.  That gun would hit the milk jug almost every shot if I did my part.  I realize that is nowhere near rifle accuracy, but it would have been fine for deer, though I never hunted deer with that gun.  Actually, with no rear sight and no groove filed into the breech to use as a rear sight, I was well pleased with the accuracy of that gun. 

That gun also liked 11 ga cardboard shot wads and cards for bird shot.  However, though I was a pretty good wing shot on ducks, geese, quail and pheasant with a modern shotgun and shot a couple summer sessions of Jr. Trap; I never shot that gun with bird shot enough to do well with it on the few times they threw clay pigeons in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate.  I don't blame the gun for that though, as I just did not have the opportunity to practice with it enough for wing shooting and it was my fault rather than the gun.

Gus