Questions on trigger pull length.

[Artificer]

Finally got a chance to shoulder a completed rifle made from Jim Chambers' English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle/Turvey Rifle Kit.  I was pleased at how well it fit and felt.  The assembler informed me he had left the trigger pull length as it came and had not shortened it.  The stock is listed as "◾Trigger Pull: 13 1/2" on the Chambers' web page,, though that might be a bit shorter when the buttplate is fitted?  I don't know.  That got me to thinking about some of the other kits where trigger pull ranges from 13 3/4 to 14 inches and what some others have mentioned here before on trigger pull length.  (I realize a kit with a trigger pull length too long can be shortened, but if too short, you are stuck with it or have to replace the stock.) 

My best friend in life used to joke that I have "Orangutan Length Arms" and if I slumped, my knuckles would drag on the ground" even as I am just shy of 6'1" and have a fair length neck.  I just pulled out my Brownell's Pull and Drop Gauge and checked my arm and sure enough a 13 1/2" trigger length feels good to me on the gauge with my long arms. 

Ok, so next I pulled out my old .45 Flinter that was built as a "Raffle Rifle" back in 1975.  When I spoke to the builder, I noted how well that rifle fit me and asked him how he had set that trigger pull length.  He chortled something like, "Gus, that rifle SHOULD feel good to you as it has the same trigger pull length as an M1 Garand!"  I just checked it and some M1's and sure enough the trigger pull length is the same at 13 1/4". 

Now because I have long arms and a fairly long neck, I was surprised when I finally got around to taking these measurements.  Unless I'm mistaken, I seem to have gotten the impression that a lot of guns are built with trigger pull lengths longer than that?  Or am I mistaken?  Or could it be the longer trigger pull lengths I've seen mentioned may have been for rifles where the buttplate was meant to be put out on the arm rather than in the shoulder? 

Where am I going wrong? 
Gus





 

[Frenchy]

First, disregard your Brownells' gage. Grip your (unloaded and hammer down) rifle with your finger on the trigger. Throw the rifle to your shoulder. Now, check the distance between your nose and the thumb of your grip hand. You should have a distance of approx. the width of 2 fingers. With the rifle mounted to your shoulder, have someone look at your shooting arm. When the length of pull is correct, your upper arm and forearm should form a 90 degree angle. This would be the ideal. Factors that would cause you to shorten this length of pull might include: length and weight of barrel, balance point of the gun, amount of clothing you normally wear when shooting.
This does not keep us from shooting guns that don't fit us 'ideally'. Humans are highly adaptable. A gun that fits properly is faster and more comfortable to shoot.

[smart dog]

Hi Frenchy,
That sounds like a very interesting way of fitting a gun and one with which I am not familar.  Where did you learn those guidelines?  I will certainly try it.  Thanks for sharing.

dave

[galamb]

Just took a look at Remington and they list their standard LOP for modern guns at 13 1/4 - 13 1/2" depending on model (and have a kit to extend the pull) on the (adult) size stocks - some 12" LOP on Youth rifles.

So that's an example "modern" LOP.

On many of the rifles I have patterned my own builds from, 13 1/2" seems to be a "very common" LOP for a Golden Age era rifle - so seems to have been a good "typical" LOP whether now or a couple hundred years ago.

Now there is always a difference between your measured LOP and what "feels right". You note you used a "gauge" and determined your LOP. I will say that's the LOP that "feels good" to you, not your actual LOP.

To find that you measure from the crook of your elbow (inside of the arm) to the inside of the knuckle on your trigger finger (so middle joint on the finger).

Like you, I am 6'1" and my sleeve length is 34". My "measured" LOP is 15 3/4" but even in a T-shirt I would find that length "uncomfortable" - I "prefer" 14 1/2" and build my rifles as such.

The one gun that I just love is my single shot, 20 ga H&R, exposed hammer shotgun. Guys I shoot with commented (a number years ago) that I was a better "shot" with that than all my other guns/rifles. So I measured the LOP and it is 14 1/2" - so that's "MY" LOP regardless of what the measurement says.

I have noted on a number of pre-shaped (but not inlet) stocks sold by Track that some of them state a 15" LOP - on their pre-inlet offerings where the butt plate is inlet, the LOP drops to between 13 1/2 - 14" depending on the (model).

[Artificer]

Frenchy,

I've never heard of that method either, thanks for sharing!! 

Gus

[James Rogers]

LOP is a "range" of comfort between not too short and not too long. It is not the magical pill for a gun fitting correcty.  Frenchy is within that ballpark for most people with the 11/2-2" estimate. In my opinion, the crook of the arm thing works for some but is not used by gunfitters because it does NOT work for all bodies. Due to the fact all bodies are different, I don't advocate strict formulas. Pick a comfortable LOP for the clothing that will be most worn and all the critical measurements are created based on the chosen LOP foundation.

[Artificer]

Just took a look at Remington and they list their standard LOP for modern guns at 13 1/4 - 13 1/2" depending on model (and have a kit to extend the pull) on the (adult) size stocks - some 12" LOP on Youth rifles.

So that's an example "modern" LOP.

On many of the rifles I have patterned my own builds from, 13 1/2" seems to be a "very common" LOP for a Golden Age era rifle - so seems to have been a good "typical" LOP whether now or a couple hundred years ago.

Now there is always a difference between your measured LOP and what "feels right". You note you used a "gauge" and determined your LOP. I will say that's the LOP that "feels good" to you, not your actual LOP.

To find that you measure from the crook of your elbow (inside of the arm) to the inside of the knuckle on your trigger finger (so middle joint on the finger).

Like you, I am 6'1" and my sleeve length is 34". My "measured" LOP is 15 3/4" but even in a T-shirt I would find that length "uncomfortable" - I "prefer" 14 1/2" and build my rifles as such.

The one gun that I just love is my single shot, 20 ga H&R, exposed hammer shotgun. Guys I shoot with commented (a number years ago) that I was a better "shot" with that than all my other guns/rifles. So I measured the LOP and it is 14 1/2" - so that's "MY" LOP regardless of what the measurement says.

I have noted on a number of pre-shaped (but not inlet) stocks sold by Track that some of them state a 15" LOP - on their pre-inlet offerings where the butt plate is inlet, the LOP drops to between 13 1/2 - 14" depending on the (model).

The modern LOP you mentioned is almost identical to the 13 1/4"  LOP on the M1 Garand.

I did not know the average LOP on original Golden Age rifles was 13 1/2" and found that VERY interesting.  THANK YOU!  Considering the height of the average man then was only about 1/2" to 3/4" shorter than it is now, that makes sense.  

The way you describe to check the LOP in the emboldened part above is how one uses the Brownell's Trigger Pull Gauge.  What might be confusing is it says "Trigger Pull and Drop Gauge," but it really means Length of Pull and Drop Gauge.  One sticks one's  finger through the hole as you mentioned and slides the sliding part to the inside of the arm as you mentioned.  Hard to tell by the link, but here it is:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/stock-l-o-p-and-drop-gauges/pull-drop-gauge-prod387.aspx

After reading what you wrote about your arm length and "playing" with the gauge more, it's possible for me to get a reading similar to the LOP you describe, but it feels too long as it does for you.  (Someone gave me this gauge maybe 20 years ago, but I have rarely used it as I mostly work on modern military guns with a fixed stock length.)

The drop from the plane of the barrel to the top of the buttplate on my flinter is about 3 1/2inch and about 5 3/4 inch to the center of the buttplate where I measure the LOP on it.  The LOP on that rifle is 13 1/4" the same as on the M1 Garand.  Maybe because of the drop I would not want the LOP to be any longer as it already feels long enough?  

Taking what you mentioned about reducing the length of pull from a gauge to what feels good, better explains why the finished Chambers Rifle felt so good.  It is listed at 13 1/2" so it sounds like it winds up shorter when the buttplate is fit.

I really appreciate you typing that out.  Now it doesn't sound so strange to me.
Gus

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

LOP is a very personal thing.  A lot of what feels comfortable to a shooter is how he/she shoulders the gun.  And a rifle is likely to be a different thing than a shotgun.
Most of the folks who come to my shop have grown up on scoped rifles, and are stalk crawlers.  Lots of them place the butt against their shoulder inside of the arm/shoulder joint (which is just fine) but they drop their right elbow.  This drops the comb of the gun away from the face so that you have to search for it with your face.  It also necessitates a longer stock, so that they don't whack their nose with the right thumb around the wrist.  As they are aiming, I simply gently lift up their elbow until it is parallel with the floor, and what do you know?  The gun moves forward away from their thumb, their head straightens to keep aligned with the sights, and they assume a more erect posture.  The length of pull can be reduced by an inch in most cases, if the shooter will take this position.  Bring the rifle to your eye, rather than the converse.  It's difficult to re-train a scoped rifle shooter, Brian.

[Artificer]

LOP is a "range" of comfort between not too short and not too long. It is not the magical pill for a gun fitting correcty.  Frenchy is within that ballpark for most people with the 11/2-2" estimate. In my opinion, the crook of the arm thing works for some but is not used by gunfitters because it does NOT work for all bodies. Due to the fact all bodies are different, I don't advocate strict formulas. Pick a comfortable LOP for the clothing that will be most worn and all the critical measurements are created based on the chosen LOP foundation.

Thanks James,

I fully realize the importance of checking with the clothing most often worn when shooting and that is an excellent point..  I found that out when I entered a Summer Jr. Trap League when I was 16 and could not believe how SHORT my buttstock on my shotgun was.  Then I remembered  I normally wore a LOT of thick clothing when I usually shot it in the winter in Iowa.  GRIN.  So I invested in a cheap trap vest with a pad sewn to it to make up the difference in the summer.  
Gus

[Artificer]

LOP is a very personal thing.  A lot of what feels comfortable to a shooter is how he/she shoulders the gun.  And a rifle is likely to be a different thing than a shotgun.
Most of the folks who come to my shop have grown up on scoped rifles, and are stalk crawlers.  Lots of them place the butt against their shoulder inside of the arm/shoulder joint (which is just fine) but they drop their right elbow.  This drops the comb of the gun away from the face so that you have to search for it with your face.  It also necessitates a longer stock, so that they don't whack their nose with the right thumb around the wrist.  As they are aiming, I simply gently lift up their elbow until it is parallel with the floor, and what do you know?  The gun moves forward away from their thumb, their head straightens to keep aligned with the sights, and they assume a more erect posture.  The length of pull can be reduced by an inch in most cases, if the shooter will take this position.  Bring the rifle to your eye, rather than the converse.  It's difficult to re-train a scoped rifle shooter, Brian.

Very interesting.  Thank you!!

I have never owned a scoped rifle and a Marine Corps Primary Marksmanship Instructor taught me to hold the rifle as you mentioned.  Perhaps this is why I got the feeling my preferred LOP was shorter than for others?  I always had to "crawl up" to shoot M1's, M14's and M16's, but that is due to the astigmatism I have to use the aperture sights.  However, I don't have that problem with Longrifle sights and can raise my head naturally.

Gus

[Artificer]

First, disregard your Brownells' gage. Grip your (unloaded and hammer down) rifle with your finger on the trigger. Throw the rifle to your shoulder. Now, check the distance between your nose and the thumb of your grip hand. You should have a distance of approx. the width of 2 fingers. With the rifle mounted to your shoulder, have someone look at your shooting arm. When the length of pull is correct, your upper arm and forearm should form a 90 degree angle. This would be the ideal. Factors that would cause you to shorten this length of pull might include: length and weight of barrel, balance point of the gun, amount of clothing you normally wear when shooting.
This does not keep us from shooting guns that don't fit us 'ideally'. Humans are highly adaptable. A gun that fits properly is faster and more comfortable to shoot.

Frenchy,

I just tried your method using my old Flinter and found I have a little more than the width of two fingers between my nose and thumb, but only a little more.  This rifle always fit me well when shooting and now I better understand why.  Thank you!

Gus

[Acer Saccharum]

This is  a very personal thing, the length of pull.

For a heavy bbl target gun:
I have found a long LOP and a heavy barrel is death to good offhand shooting scores. I like a shorter LOP, which keeps the the weight back and balance a little better.

For a fowler: you want to be able to pull the gun to the shoulder without getting caught on your coat.

[Artificer]

Acer,

Perhaps I want too much, but I would like to have a rifle that easily comes to the shoulder and when held the correct way as discussed above, has the sights aligned when it is fully in the shoulder. 
Gus

[Jerry V Lape]

I certainly would not use the Garand as a model.  Remember the instructors telling you to use your thumb as a cheek weld? I couldn't shoot the National Match M-1 worth beans until I added a raised comb piece of walnut that used to be an after market accessory readily available.   That was because it had  way too much drop.  As noted elsewhere drop affects LOP.  Rifles in general use a little less LOP than shotguns but the best fitted shotguns in the world put your eye in perfect alignment with and parallel to the bore.  A rifle so fitted will shoot quite accurately without sights so I match my rifle stocks to my shotguns (taking into account the small increase for the sight height on a rifle).

  I am only 5'8" so height is very average.  But face fullness and shoulder width are also factors which is why a fitted shotgun really needs to be shot versus measured in. My shotguns fit over a shirt and vest with padded shoulder at 14 1/4" with drop at point of cheek contact of 1 3/4".  My rifles need to be a bit shorter so that works out as 13 3/4" to accommodate hunting clothes.  13 1/2" works well on rifles too as we humans are pretty adaptable- besides a long length of pull on a rifle will make it almost impossible to shoot in a prone or low sitting position.    Shorter than that, I start wandering around on the stock looking for the sights.

 Before you begin trying to fit a gun with a professional fitter he should make sure you have a PROPER REPEATABLE  mount (also referred to earlier).  If you can't plant that butt in the right place each time there is not much need to worry about precise fit. 

[Artificer]

 Before you begin trying to fit a gun with a professional fitter he should make sure you have a PROPER REPEATABLE  mount (also referred to earlier).  If you can't plant that butt in the right place each time there is not much need to worry about precise fit.  

Good points and well said, Jerry.  Though I was a NM Armorer for most of my career and not a NM Shooter, I did manage to pick up many things through Osmosis if nothing else.  Grin.  Mounting the stock precisely to the shoulder and getting an exact spot weld was one of those things.  That is how I managed to tie 7 Marines before me for the All Time Requal Record of 249 out of 250 at Quantico.  

However, I was never trained to fit a stock to a person.  I've seen it done, including one Gentleman from Holland and Holland who came to Quantico for the International Muzzleloading Committee's World Championships in 1980.  He was amazing.  Of course, I don't expect the fit to be anything like that, though.  I just want to learn as much as I can before my next rifle.  I am also thinking of building an adjustable "try" stock.

Thanks for the information.
Gus