Shot alternatives?

[FlintRock Rob]

I was already hijacking the "non lead projectile" thread a bit, so I thought I'd better start one specifically about shot alternatives since I have a few questions.

I haven't done any bird hunting, but I want to get into it by way of building a PA-style flintlock fowler – any excuse to build a gun right? So, since I'm really a greenhorn on this I thought I better ask before buying a barrel.

From what I understand, lead or bismuth, I could use in any ML barrel I buy, right? Steel and tungsten-molybdenum (or any of those heavy-shot varieties) I would have to find a barrel from someone other than Getz, Rice, Colerain, etc., made specifically for steel shot? Track has their oct-round, 42", 20 ga listed as being made from "modern barrel steel" not sure what that means, and I haven't called them yet to see if it means I could use steel or tungsten shot too.

Anyway, I have a summary of what I think I know listed below (could be wrong!) Does anyone have experience in Getz, Rice, etc. barrels with alternative shot? I know there have been some threads on various shot cups used and patterns, so I am really wondering about wear/damage to one of those nice smoothie barrels that cost some $$.

Pb (lead) shot

• useable in any ML barrel
• not able to shoot waterfowl due to laws
• may be legal for turkey, upland birds in some places
• easy to buy in many sizes

Bi (bismuth) shot

• useable in any ML barrel
• legal for waterfowl
• hard to find in bulk for reloading/ML
• expensive?

W/Mo shot (tungsten/molybdenum ECO or heavyshot)

• need a steel shot barrel
• legal for waterfowl
• hard to find in bulk for reloading/ML
• expensive
• are any ML oct-round barrels available?

steel shot

• need a steel shot barrel
• legal for waterfowl
• hard to find in bulk for reloading/ML
• expensive
• are any ML oct-round barrels available?

[northmn]

You have it summarized fairly well.  Bismuth can be used in any gun barrel in place of lead.  It is expensive.  Where I hunt pheasants in Federal managed areas and have to use no-tox I like Bismuth in older guns. Steel and some tungsten loads require special wads in any gun to prevent scoring the barrel walls.  There are those that have had success loading steel in ML's.  Ideally you need to look for special wads.  One I am going to play with is the Ballistic Product LBC (limited bore contact) that looks like it may hold a little lube like Crisco.  You have to slit them and use a heavier powder charge.  Steel has the advantage of being more affordable.  10 pounds of steel costs about $20.00 more or less depending on postage.  Bismuth and the Tungsten's was going for over $100 for 7 lbs. 

As to gunbarrels.  When Track advertises their barrels as being made of modern barrel steel to mean the composition of the barrel and nothing to do with steel shot.  Nobody wants to warrant steel use because in smokeless as steel load is high pressure and can "ring" a tightly choked barrel. 

Here is where steel causes problems:

The bigger sizes can be hard on chokes as they do not "flow" through the chokes.  Steel sizes of about #1 or less cause very few problems will act very similar to lead in patterning.  If you have a classic full choke constricted at the muzzle claims are made that steel can ring behind the full choke (actually they say it really doesn't hurt the barrel for steel use)  In a open choke and especially a Ml cylinder bore steel will not harm the barrel if enclosed in a proper wad.  If enclosed in a wad made for them tungsten alloys will not either.

Steel can scratch barrels so you will have to use a wad designed for steel. Tungsten as in Hevi shot is harder yet. 

I cannot say whether hard alloys will harm a jug choke.  Flflinter claims that the heavy wads tend to "bridge"  a jug choke and do not pattern as well as lighter ones. 

As to range.  Within 40 yards if you use proper shot selection steel is very effective.  I only use bismuth in older guns or smaller bores.  In my modern 12 bore I use steel as it is plenty effective and does not cost #3+ a shot.  There is a Rather loose rule of thumb about using 2 sizes larger if using steel.  It works for a small range with 4's through B's  For bigger sizes for geese you need to go up 3 sizes and for upland game its about 1 1/2 sizes.  Steel 5's work as well as lead 6's for me and steel 6's work well on Ruffed grouse.  Steel 6's are more effective than 8 shot and more like 7 shot.   There is also a lot of hype about high mv's being needed with steel.  As long as you keep your shooting within open choke range you do not need high velocity but can get by with normal loads in a ML.  Most of that hype is designed by manufacturers to sell ammunition with less expensive shot as a component. 

I would not hesitate to buy any good barrel from any good manufacturer and use steel or even Hevi-shot as long as I matched the wad to the shot.  There is another non-lead substitute sold by Ballistic Products that is supposed to work in any barrel, but it is costs about $130/7pounds.  Hevi shot manufactures no-tox shot shells that are to be used in "classic" shotguns also.  Kent made their Tungsten Matrix loads that can be shot in any barrel.  I suppose you could do as I have done for Bismuth and buy a box of shells and disassemble for the shot.  Mostly I try to hunt in more places that permit lead.

DP

[roundball]

EcoTungsten(niceshot) is a direct lead substitute, can be used in any shotgun...old originals, new ones, etc...can be use in bare bores without shotcups.

Its also expensive...as a non-toxic, it would normally only be used for waterfowl...and since it's operational characteristics are identical to lead, you can actually do load development with the corresponding lead size (ie: #6 lead vs. #6 E/T) then just run a couple shots of E/T to be absoultely certain it's patterning the same.

I've personally pattern tested E/T #6's from my .62cal GM flint smoothbore barrel that's jug choked 'Full' and it throws a tighter pattern at 40yds than my hard magnum lead shot does.

NOTE:
Using a shotcup in a Jug Choked barrel neuturalizes the effects of the Jug Choke by not allowing the shot charge to expand into the expansion chamber as it goes past it.  However, like in any shotgun barrel, the shotcup itself should provide some pattern improvement over a cylinder bore.

[FlintRock Rob]

Thanks for the help. I was hoping it would be better to just get the barrel pattern I wanted for the project, and then work on specifics of shot/wad/etc depending on and how I plan to use it. You've confirmed that, and given me a lot of good information. Now I have a starting point. I really appreciate it!

[Daryl]

My take on the steel shot barrels has to do with strengthened choke areas.  With an cylinder, steel shot should be suitable any gun - as long as it is kept from touching the bore. Indeed, the articles I've read on how the steel shot opened up the tight full chokes to a weak modified and how more shooting failed to open the chokes any further resulting in  no more damage.

 Where the steel shot actually damages most barrels is when it cuts through the shot wrapper (wad) and scrapes lines in the bore (hey- straight rifling!  As I read these scrapes started just ahead of the chamber- meaning the compression passing through the chamber's forcing cones caused the pellets to cut through the plastic and scrape the bore.  Since a ML has no larger chamber behind the bore, and no forcing cone ahead of the shot column, they shouldn't cut through a good barrier. Their only pressure against the barrel will be the setback from acceleration, which is less dramatic for BP than a modern smokeless load, I assume, due to normal better patterning with BP than smokeless from the same gun.  Of course there may be other reasons as well.

Some barrels have harder steel than others - GM comes to mind, at least with the rifle barrels.  I suspect they use the same material for their smoothbores - maybe not - a letter to them should come up with that answer.

[FlintRock Rob]

Daryl,

That's a good point on some of the barrels may be harder steel, hadn't thought about that possibility.

As for getting 'straight rifling' with steel shot, great idea. I imagine the conversation would go something like this:

Game Officer "You can't use a rifle for hunting ducks."
Me "It's not a rifle. It's just looks like that with the steel shot scraping the bore."
Game Officer "You can't use a rifle for hunting ducks."
Me "It's not a rifle.

[Daryl]

Hmmm- the left barrel of my SxS Husky is normal smooth choked. The right barrel is straight rifled.  You can shoot your moose from the duck blind.

[FlintRock Rob]

Oh man, now I'm going to have build a lot of guns before I attempt a SxS   

[northmn]

The modern guns and some ML doubles have been advertised as safe for steel and use a chrome lined barrel.  Shot steel is supposed to be very soft for steel but there are claims of scoring.  Any commercial steel wad should at least keep it to a minimum or prevent it entirely.  The stuff I would worry about is the hard stuff like Hevi-shot.  Another safeguard is to buy the zinc coated steel out of Precision Reloading (zinc is toxic but the coating is approved).  The zinc coating is designed to provide rust protection and help lubricate the shot so that it flows through chokes better.  I believe Remington uses it in their factory loads,  Federal may but used to use copper.  For flow I use motor mica.
As to building a double.  I am looking for an inexpensive set of modern barrels to do so.  Soldering a set of barrels together may be a little more of a challenge than I want.  Especially regulating them.

DP

 

[Robby]

Has anyone ever heard of a shot manufacturer making shot from pure iron. It is soft malleable, fairly heavy, seems like it would be softer than ML barrel steel, and easy to manufacture, there is no shortage of it. I don't know what the down side would be, just wondering.
 The eco-tungsten looks good, but, there again its kind of pricey.

[Daryl]

Iron is what Steel shot is made of and was the first of the non-toxic shots - is responsible for the early belling of full choke barrels and scoring the hard steel barrels of modern shotguns, breech to muzzle - could be wrong, but the early 'steel' shot articles said it was iron, not steel.  it's a lot lighter than bismuth - cheaper too, I'd expect.

[northmn]

Steel shot is very low carbon.  I do not believe any foundry's supply wrought iron anymore and shot makers use a wire to make steel shot by hobbing it between steel plates.  Due to lead price increases lately steel shotgun shells cost less than high quality lead ones do.  Another thing about steel is the shot sizes used.  Goose hunters using  BB, BBB, T and other large sizes have had more problems than those using 2's or smaller.  Its too bad smoothbore barrels could not have about a skeet 1 or skeet in choke (.005) as they likely would pattern anything better and likely would work with roundball.  Some used to say a little choke actually increase velocity.  Using the pricey stuff is great, I just personally rebel at it as I have found steel to be adequate.  It seems like when someone cripples a bird with steel they get all upset but with lead its just the breaks of the game.  My fondest memories of a Chesapeake was the fantastic retrieves she made on crippled ducks.  At that time I was using lead.   Have some memorys of great retrieves made by a springer shorthair cross on pheasants using lead, steel and bismuth.  One of the facts of wingshooting and is why I love an experienced hunting dog.  Actually seeing potential in a rat terrier I somehow inherited.

DP

[Robby]

I remember when the lead ban went into effect, I also remember all the horror stories of ruined barrels, and unrecovered wounded waterfowl. How much of that is true, I have no first hand knowledge of, as I had not hunted waterfowl since then, till I started making ML fowlers. I have been making shot cups from paper index cards with an unchoked barrel. I'm thinking of having a barrel jug choked and eliminating the paper cups, and was curious as to what alternative to bismuth would be safe to shoot in a ML barrel unprotected by a shot cup, as Roundball states, the cup negates the jug choke. I wouldn't shoot mild steel, unprotected, in a ML barrel and was just wondering if "Pure" iron had ever been used, considered, or experimented with. I had never heard of the "eco-tungsten", guess I'll give it a shot, so to speak. Thanks RB.

[Daryl]

Robby- I 'think' that anything other than bismuth is going to hurt your barrel.  It is the only 'soft' alternitive to lead as far as I know.

[roundball]

Its not the only one.....EcoTungsten is a direct lead substitute non-toxic shot, does not hurt bores at all, works in bare bores, old original muzzleloaders, old shotguns, new shotguns, no shotcups required...outstanding stuff.

$60 for 2.2lbs = $1.75/oz,   1.5oz shot charge - $2.63

I think modern waterfowl shells run about $4.00-$5.00 each

[northmn]

Ballistic Products sells a product called ITX shot that is supposed to be safe and would at least require minimum barrel protection.  Kent has the Matrix which is only available in loaded shells.  They are made by embedding tungston in a plastic.  Federal used to sell shells of this nature.  The ITX is $129.00 for 7 pounds.  Its out there and whether you want to buy it is your own concern.  Most of the stuff does pattern quite well and offers a solution to using fowlers in a way they were designed.  I admit that 7 pounds would last me quite a while in the pheasant fields where I hunt as the hunting is really not all that good most years.  Also I can use lead in many areas.  For waterfowl it would likely last awhile also.  You do not shoot that much with ML fowlers.  Whatever you use you will get cripples, maybe not a lot of them but a few.  A BP fowler is not a long range weapon and if used at long range you will get more cripples.  With open chokes I could do a pretty fair job on ducks at under 40 yards. That was with lead.  The lead substitutes won't do any better.  Actually a full choke gives abouyt 7 to 10 yards over a open choke and is harder to hit with.  Full chokes cripple more birds with marginal hits than any shot celection.

DP

[Robby]

I've read about all I can find on both ITX and the EcoTungsten. Granted, it is from people trying to push a product, but it does lead me to believe it would be safe in a ML barrel. Hunting with a flintlock fowler for waterfowl requires one to be a more disciplined and practiced shooter. I don't know that I have ever wounded a bird, if I did it was in the periphery of my pattern and I wasn't aware of it, but then, I pass up a lot of shots that would probably be duck soup for a modern full choked shotgun. What the heck, you only get one shot.
I'm about out of the bismuth, and am looking for that which will give me the most bang for the buck, without causing damage to the barrel. You folks are a lot more knowledge about the ballistics and shooting of these ML's, ball or shot, than I. I have learned a lot about getting the most out of my ML's here. Thanks!
   Robby

[northmn]

I looked up eco-shot.  Its is very expensive when compared to ITX at about $180 for 6.6 pounds to ITX at $129.  The good news is that one can buy it by the Kilo for about $60.  When one compares lead to no-tox, one has to understand that not all lead pellets are comparible.  Chilled shot is not bad, but is best for close range work.  Some of the stuff they used to load in promotional shells like duck and pheasant was not all that good.  I rate a 1 1/8 oz load of steel better than 1 1/4 soft lead, maybe as good as a hard lead load but inferior to copper plated or nickel plated lead.  Most of the no-tox subs like ITX, or eco-tungston, matrix and even improved bismuth are a little harder and perform about like copper plated shot.  Eco-tungston claims that 1 1/8 is a good load and I suspect would equal most 1 1/4 oz lead loads.  Cost depends upon how much shooting you get.  I would love to have my costs increase on pheasants.  As to crippling birds.  My son shot a grouse one time.  It showed no sign of being hit and kept flying.  My Shorthair hit point further on and here lay a fresh dead bird.  I have found some of these in the woods pretty stiff.  One way to avoid this is to use adequate shot sizes.  some people insist that promotional 8's work on grouse.  They do not, nor are 7.5's that good.  MLs have less energy.  For my general hunting I bought a bag of mag 5's which covers both grouse and pheasants.

DP

[roundball]

My interest in EcoTungsten was to meet the non-toxic requirement for waterfowl and not to have to use a modern plastic shotcup in a .62cal Flint smoothbore.
To use steel I would have had to use a modern shotcup which I didn't want to do while hunting with a Flintlock...

[joelvca]

Has anyone found any further information on the ITX shot?  Everything I've found suggests that the hardness is closer to steel than to lead, and is NOT to be used without a shot protector.  (edit) I just found this on another board (posted last September):

Talked to a guy at Ballistic Products today who said they wouldn't have any of the new ITX shot to sell for at least a few more weeks- read early October. They don't have data worked up for it yet, but he was adamant in telling me it'll have to be used with their BPS wad. "Regular" wads don't stand up to the abuse. Bummer, 'cause I was using Remington RP-12's for Bismuth loads (Hodgdon loading data). At least one can use "regular" wads with the nice shot (completely interchangeable with lead).

So.... If this is the case, it is of limited utility for muzzleloaders.

Everything I've seen continues to support that Nice Shot/Eco-Tungsten can be used without protection, and will probably pattern better than lead.

How about Hevi-Shot "Classic Doubles" shot?  I've read one report (no sources named) suggesting that it was closer to Bismuth shot hardness but somewhat brittle, but I remain skeptical about it's use without protection.

Thanks,
Joel

[Daryl]

If you are going to use small shot, develop a load which produces an veritable dense cloud of it on paper.  I've used # 8 1/2's #9 lead on grouse and ducks over decoys. It was incredible in large gauges, ie: 12 and 10 bores. It works well only for passing shots where the head and neck are riddles. I also carried a few in my pockets for shooting crips from pass shooting farther out - never a pellet in the body, but heads and necks riddled. The same scenario might work in jug-chokes ML's. Just a thought.  I once got 27 snipe with one shot with my 10 bore - Taylor was with me. The load was 2oz of #8 1/2 soft lead.  There wasn't a single pellet in any of the breasts - but - I cooked the platter of snipe breasts in the nuke-em-wave and set it for a few minutes too long. When I removed the tray, there were 27 little black walnuts on the platter - so hard, I could have shot them from a 10 bore's barrel as balls. Of course, they weren't very heavy.

[northmn]

I just read Ballistics products promotion concerning ITX and they claim it is closest to Bismuth in softness and can be crushed with a pliers.  It is still at $130 per 7 pounds so is not very cheap and requires considerable outlay to shoot at any volume.  Also it has limited choice of shot sizes, with #6 supposed to be coming.  It is cast so that I suspect small shot sizes are not practical.  Bismuth is back on the market in shotshells so may come back for reloading.  I think the Eco shot does have an advantage in that you can buy two sizes of shot for the same outlay as the ITX but would only have about 4.4 pounds.  As to using any of these substitutes without protection, Bismuth would be OK.  Shot protectors are not all that unuseable in ML's.

DP

[joelvca]

I just read Ballistics products promotion concerning ITX and they claim it is closest to Bismuth in softness and can be crushed with a pliers. ...  As to using any of these substitutes without protection, Bismuth would be OK.  Shot protectors are not all that unuseable in ML's.

With due respect to Ballistic Products, I have never seen specifics from them on how hard it actually is, just how hard it is not - "Like lead and bismuth, ITX does not register above 27.0 on this scale of hardness."  That 27.0 R.C is something like 250 Brinell.  The only place I've found the hardness specified is in a magazine article (http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Retro+Waterfowlers+Delight?packedargs=pagenum%3D2):

According to BP, ITX measures 40 HRF on the Rockwell "F" scale. That same scale measures magnum lead shot as 10 HRF, steel shot at 99 HRF and barrel steel at 100 HRF. Not having a Rockwell "F" scale tester handy to confirm it, I'll take BP's word when it comes to actual numbers. What I was able to do, however, is use pliers to measure the relative hardness of ITX against various other types of shot. By mashing an ITX shot against another type of shot of the same diameter, the softer piece of shot will compress first.

and

Though ITX is "soft," it contains tungsten, which is hard and can be very abrasive. Think of a pellet with a sandpaper surface going down your bore. Because of that abrasiveness, BP ITX loads all call for heavy-duty wads much like you'd use for steel shot to protect your bore from scoring. And as I do with steel shot handloads, I add the extra insurance of a thin mylar wrap to the inside of the shotcup before adding the shot. Mylar is a thin, pliable plastic that's tougher than a tax collector's heart and all but eliminates the chance of a pellet finding its way through a wad slit where it can contact and damage the bore. As the shot cup opens, the mylar wrap simply uncoils from the shot column, so it doesn't affect the pattern.


Nice shot, on  the other hand, is 14.9-16.0 Brinell (about like wheel weight alloy) and claimed to be usable without bore protection (http://ecotungsten-niceshot.blogspot.com/2007/11/reinventing-lead.html).  Like ITX, it is swadged from a tungsten-iron alloy powder suspended in a matrix - in this case, tin - and afterwards given a tin coating.  Others in addition to Roundball have reported successful use in traditional loads in muzzleloaders.  Yes, shotcups are not unusable in muzzleloaders, but many of us want to stay as traditional as possible .  I'm not necessarily rigorous in being traditional, but would strongly prefer to not have to fuss with plastic.

Joel

[Daryl]

One can always use a paper protector made of 'post-it notes'. They won't protect like heavy plastic but they'll help and won't melt in your bore either.  Those with choked bores and jug-choked bores really don't need help with patterning, but will be subject to more scuffing, scraping scratching and gouging IF the shot's contents do that.  A smooth bore will be damaged much less than the leading edge of any constriction which will exacerbate any of the possible 'side' effects of the shot.

[northmn]

Nice shot, on  the other hand, is 14.9-16.0 Brinell (about like wheel weight alloy) and claimed to be usable without bore protection (http://ecotungsten-niceshot.blogspot.com/2007/11/reinventing-lead.html).  Like ITX, it is swadged from a tungsten-iron alloy powder suspended in a matrix - in this case, tin - and afterwards given a tin coating.  Others in addition to Roundball have reported successful use in traditional loads in muzzleloaders.  Yes, shotcups are not unusable in muzzleloaders, but many of us want to stay as traditional as possible .  I'm not necessarily rigorous in being traditional, but would strongly prefer to not have to fuss with plastic.

Joel

If you are going to be "traditional" you use lead drop shot and none of the substitutes, nor any chilled or magnum shot.  I do not even know if you can get drop shot anymore as most has been hardened beyond that.  I do not champion ITX and just mentioned it as a new alternative in that it is advertised to be used more like lead.  It is soft enough not to register on the Rockwell scale like lead.  If you need to use plastic then so be it as that is the price we pay for the non-toxic regulations.

DP