Author Topic: "Hop-upping" a round all  (Read 13304 times)

hammer

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 06:23:18 PM »
I remember many many years ago there was a magazine article about a guy who rolled the ball on a rasp to get little spikes all over the surface.  The idea being that it would fly straighter.  After leaving the barrel with a whistling sound it veered left, conitued over cattle in the next field, sending them into a panic, then came round behind him. He ducked just in time and the ball continued on and struck the target.  He was disappointed because it hit the edge and he had been aiming at the centre.   Put it down to the rasp marks being uneven on one side.
Then there was the story of the guy who accidentally cut off his nose one night during a power failure.  Don't know if we are talking about the same person here.  Phoned the  doc who rushed over and managed to sew it back on.  When daylight arrived the man found to his surprise that, in the dark, the doc had sewed it on upside down.    He learned to live with it until years later when he was caught out in a downpour without his hat and drowned.
Its a strange world.

Vomitus

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2014, 11:06:56 PM »
   Musta used a Nicholson#49. The #50 would leave too small of dimples for the human ear to hear the whistle! :o :o

Short start

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2014, 12:33:40 AM »
Lol hammer

Offline Daryl

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2014, 06:21:03 PM »
Thanks Daryl,  interesting stuff.  On the smoothbore,  what would filing the barrel off out of square to the bore do?  Maybe impart some spin?  Seems like any spin other than around the axis of the line of flight would cause the ball to fly on a curved path?  I guess if it was a uniform curve it might  be usable.   

If an undersized ball is projected from a gun's bore - it will take on spin - probably not the same each time which is why smoothbores with loose fitting balls are inaccurate.

A crooked muzzle will project the ball towards the opposite side to the minor angle.  I cannot see that giving a spin to the ball - it might - or not - probably not - who knows? If it did, would it be the same each time?  What if the ball exited already spinning in a different direction? could it be reversed - doubt that too.  How many fairies can dance on the head of a pin?  I think this type of hypothesizing is quite similar to that age-old question about the trinkets (fairies).  No offense meant, LH.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline WadePatton

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2014, 01:31:30 AM »
Is that anything like backspin on a golf ball to make it "fly" longer"?

Backspin is imparted by the loft of the club to provide elevation and counteracts side-spin which is usually the result of swing error (unless intentionally used as by advanced golfers (fade/draw) to counteract wind and course conditions.)

If elevation could be applied to a golf ball by another means, there'd be no need for backspin.  IOW you can't hit a ball properly with a golf club and not induce backspin.  That's just how it works.

A (golf) ball without dimples, floats and flutters like a knuckleball.  The spin, although imparted by the club as before, doesn't "get traction" without the dimples.  Just like a baseball without seams wouldn't curve.

Airsoft?  no clue.  is there rifling?

back to powder and lead yo.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 01:33:23 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Frank

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2014, 04:54:30 AM »
If you want your ball to spin, shoot a rifle!

Offline Daryl

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2014, 07:17:47 PM »
Thanks Daryl,  interesting stuff.  On the smoothbore,  what would filing the barrel off out of square to the bore do?  Maybe impart some spin?  Seems like any spin other than around the axis of the line of flight would cause the ball to fly on a curved path?  I guess if it was a uniform curve it might  be usable.   

The filing of muzzles "off square" was a method used in the 1800's by Colt to 'regulate' their side by side rifles.  It was also used recently by a modern double rifle gun builder in Europe, however they have ceased to do this and are now regulating properly by moving wedges between the barrels.

As noted, filing off square will allow powder gases to push the ball or bullet in the opposite direction to that side the gasses escape from. I doubt very much escaping gases would cause any spin on a ball as it exits.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

hpdrifter

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2014, 04:19:58 PM »
Is that anything like backspin on a golf ball to make it "fly" longer"?

If elevation could be applied to a golf ball by another means, there'd be no need for backspin.  IOW you can't hit a ball properly with a golf club and not induce backspin.  That's just how it works.

A (golf) ball without dimples, floats and flutters like a knuckleball.  The spin, although imparted by the club as before, doesn't "get traction" without the dimples.  Just like a baseball without seams wouldn't curve.

Airsoft?  no clue.  is there rifling?

back to powder and lead yo.

I suggest you do a little searching for the physics of ball flight.  Backspin creates loft.

Offline heelerau

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2014, 07:03:09 AM »
 Mate I have a dozen or so 1/16 scale rc tanks, tigers, panzers, they have the hop up system, I thougt it refered to the chute arangement that recharges the main gun with ball. by the way they put dents in the fridge and the dogs are not to keen on them either.
     I have found patched round ball fired from a Pat 42 smoothbore shot well enough to kill rabbits out to 50 odd yards.  ;D
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline Daryl

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2014, 01:23:46 AM »
I had a .44 smoothbore flint gun that was tremendous on rabbits (head shots only, count) out to 50yards, AFTER Taylor converted it to cap-gun for me. Until it was converted to cap, I made a lot of 3' to 4' long rabbits - but only if they were facing to the left - right hand shooters flinching, shoot low right!

IIRC - I loaded it with 45gr. 2F and a tightly patched .433" ball. It was MUCH more accurate than my current .62smoothie - however THAT one is flint. :D
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

joelvca

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2014, 08:09:33 AM »
The effect of the spin from the Magnus effect is seen with golf balls, baseballs, and lots of other things. The idea in gunnery is that a bare ball is given spin by contact with the barrel  and one uses just enough bend to make the top of the muzzle the last point of contact of the ball with the barrel. It has the effects I mentioned:
- It gives the ball a consistent spin, eliminating the variability of spin from random contact with the barrel or from the knuckle-ball effect on an initially non-spinning ball.
- It orients the spin so the effects are in the vertical plane of the trajectory, with no lateral deflection.
- It produces back-spin, which gives the ball lift, and thus a flatter trajectory.
This was first seriously investigated by Benjamin Robins, and described in his New Principles of Gunnery in 1742. As cited at http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/c_velocity.html: "Robins also investigated lateral deflection of high-speed projectiles. He set up a series of evenly spaced paper curtains that allowed him to measure the enormous deflections of a musket ball in flight. In one test a ball measured over a range of 760 yards deflected more that 100 yards to the left. Robins identified that it was the spin of the ball that caused this deflection. In a further experiment he bent a gun barrel a few degrees to the left. Although the bullet initially moved towards the left, eventually it reversed its later direction and crossed to the right of the barrel (this effect, which can be observed in baseball and tennis balls, is known as the Magnus effect)." I don't have the reference any more, but I'm fairly sure I remember him specifically writing of the possibility of this muzzle-bend in a "gun" (i.e. smoothbore in British usage) intended for ball, and of this being used by gun makers back then, just as this effect is used today in airsoft guns.  Obviously, this bend will throw the pattern low if shot is fired from the barrel.

If a ball is fired without spin, it appears to be essentially a knuckle ball and eventually break in a random direction, just like a baseball. Patched balls appear to be commonly launched without spin, while unpatched balls may or may not be, depending on the specifics of wadding and loading technique. The important questions for a shooter are how far downrange does the ball get before it starts to break and how fast does it diverge after it starts to break. Concerning the first aspect, many smoothbore shooters have reported getting their best accuracy with patched balls, usually tightly patched, at comparatively high velocities, so I suspect that suspect that pushing the ball hard gets it further downrange before it starts to break.

Another possibly related factor is the turbulence encountered at transonic velocities. This factor affects all projectiles and is significant enough that modern long-range shooters seeking the best accuracy try to use a cartridge/load that will keep their bullets supersonic all the way to the target. Here again, a higher velocity will move the subsonic transition further downrange. This turbulence may affect the onset and/or magnitude of the knuckle-ball break, but even if it does not directly affect the break, it will compound with it to increase dispersion (and wind drift IIRC) at ranges beyond the transition. This is also why those seeking the best shorter-range accuracy may choose to use a muzzle-velocity below the speed of sound - match-grade .22RF ammo, for example - to avoid this turbulence.

I haven't seen enough comment about the second knuckle ball aspect - the magnitude of the break - to make any observations concerning the effects of velocity.

Regards,
Joel

Offline Daryl

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Re: "Hop-upping" a round all
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2014, 05:34:42 PM »

Good points Joel.  Indeed,how far down range does the ball get before it 'breaks'.

I've watched, through my the binocs many times as smoothbore and rifle shooters shoot at our '90yard Fox" steel target.  When the sun-light is good, I could actually see the last 20yards or so of the flight in my 'birding' binos. The balls from all rifles are predictable in flight- shallow arc to the fox- hit.

From the smoothbores, sometimes the the balls arc onto the fox moving in a perfectly straight line- a perfect shot merely showing more rise and drop than the higher speed rifles, with no windage error.  At other times the ball takes on a curve like a trumpet's horn - seemingly flying straight at the fox, then zipping down, up, right or left like curve, climbers, drop balls.

I should note that the incredible display of curve balls happens more often with one particular shooter, who only uses 65gr. 2f in his 20 bore guns, thus his velocity is probably well under 1,000fps to start with. The other fellows who shoot more powder in their 28 and 20 bores, have less 'curve' balls, indeed, they pretty much all shoot their smoothbores more accurately than the light load shooter.

I have never observed the typical knuckle ball up and down motion seen with baseballs. Perhaps this isn't happening with these faster moving balls, or perhaps the up and down undulations are so spread out over distance (slowly acting) that they cannot be observed over that relatively short  90yard distance.

What I've found in my own smoothbore, is the more powder I pour in, the better my long range shooting becomes - thus, the further the ball seems to get out there relatively accurately, before it does weird things.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V