canoe gun

[whitebear]

Is there any specific style or requirements for building a canoe gun?  Were they more common in certain areas (schools) was there a specific metal used in the butt plate and trigger guard.  I am wanting to build one but don't want it to be too far off from the acceptable norm.

[blackbruin]

Take a nw trade gun and chop the barrel to 20-24"!

[Old Ford2]

Hi,
I made one a few years back using a Brown Bess type stock.
Came out nice...........should of taken some pictures
I hope this helps?
Fred

[mattdog]

The only "requirement" for  canoe gun is that it be short enough to load while sitting in a canoe.  The original NSW canoe gun is/was approx. 34" AOL length.  That's a 20" barrel and 12" LOP. 

[jrb]

I suspect "canoe guns" started to be made in the 1960s?

[Pete G.]

I have never been able to find any historic reference to what is today termed a "Canoe Gun". Surely there was a gun with a bent barrel that was cut off or something of the sort, but documentation seems to be scant.

[Kermit]

Documentary evidence being at or near zero, I think the best answer to your question is, "No."

[Hungry Horse]

What we call canoe guns today, were cut down N.W. trade guns, shortened to be concealed  under a blanket, or capote, and used to overpower guards in some western forts. The fact that you could load one more easily in a canoe was simply an added advantage.  Curly marketed the first "canoe gun" sometime in the seventies, to the best of my knowledge.

                    Hungry Horse

[Levy]

I don't know if it qualifies as a canoe gun, but I cleaned the lock and barrel from a Carolina Gun (Type G) found in the Apalachicola River that had a 28" barrel complete with the typical front sight.  The lock was signed WILSON.  The  barrel had LONDON at the breech and the usual brass back sight.  Wallace Gusler thought it had been cut down.  The lock was still attached to the barrel, but that was all.

James Levy

[Dphariss]

There are a number of reasons why a gun might be cut down. Given the quality of the barrels a burst barrel is a valid reason.
So there are reasons other than wanting a shorter gun.
The buckskinners "invented" all sorts of stuff especially in the late 1960s and 1970s.
Were trade guns cut down? Sure, but a blanket gun is more likely to look like a pistol. There is/was a cut down trade gun in the Museum at Mammoth WY that had the barrel cut to about 12-14" and the stock cut off just behind the break of the comb. It has the typical rear sight found om many trade guns but no front sight. THIS is a blanket gun.  Trying the hide a trade gun with a 20-30" barrel and a full length buttstock would be far more difficult.
So far as loading the thing is a canoe? I think this is a fallacy.
Dan

[whitebear]

I don't know if it qualifies as a canoe gun, but I cleaned the lock and barrel from a Carolina Gun (Type G) found in the Apalachicola River that had a 28" barrel complete with the typical front sight.  The lock was signed WILSON.  The  barrel had LONDON at the breech and the usual brass back sight.  Wallace Gusler thought it had been cut down.  The lock was still attached to the barrel, but that was all.

James Levy

Ok I'm playing dumb, well maybe not playing but, explain "typical front sight" and "usual brass back sight"  Thanks

[jrb]

I'm not sure if Mr. Levy is referring to sights exactly like he shows on the type G  river find he so kindly shared pictures and info about , a few years ago, but here's a link to that one. Simply fascinating stuff, thanks James Levy.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4828.0

[Mike Brooks]

Is there any specific style or requirements for building a canoe gun?  Were they more common in certain areas (schools) was there a specific metal used in the butt plate and trigger guard.  I am wanting to build one but don't want it to be too far off from the acceptable norm.

Complete fantasy. No such gun was ever built for canoeing.

[Mike Brooks]

The only "requirement" for  canoe gun is that it be short enough to load while sitting in a canoe.  The original NSW canoe gun is/was approx. 34" AOL length.  That's a 20" barrel and 12" LOP. 

The gun I used most often for canoeing had a 48" barrel. I never had a problem loading it in the canoe. most "moderns" can't get past the fact that the barrel doesn't have to be vertical to load it.

[bob in the woods]

I have a " canoe gun"  .  It is a 4 bore punt gun on a swivel that is mounted on the bow  

[Dphariss]

Thank you Mike Brooks.
I can load a long rifle while prone hiding from deer. Can't see a canoe being near as difficult.

Dan

[whitebear]

I have a " canoe gun"  .  It is a 4 bore punt gun on a swivel that is mounted on the bow  

Paddle out to where you want to shoot it, load, fire, and paddle for 10 minutes getting back to where you were when you fired it.

[alex e.]

The only "requirement" for  canoe gun is that it be short enough to load while sitting in a canoe.  The original NSW canoe gun is/was approx. 34" AOL length.  That's a 20" barrel and 12" LOP.  

The gun I used most often for canoeing had a 48" barrel. I never had a problem loading it in the canoe. most "moderns" can't get past the fact that the barrel doesn't have to be vertical to load it.

.        Carry a 57" barreled gun and. Wait for the comments...............     'canoe gun' is a modern,fantasy term.

[mattdog]

The first "canoe gun" wasn't chopped down by a Blackfoot warrior or marketed by Curly Gostomski.  It was made by Bob Rathbun approx. 1995, by request of a Canadian fellow who wanted a Northwest gun short enough to load it while sitting in a canoe.  Why can't anyone accept that.?  Of course you can load a gun with a 48" or 53" brrel in a canoe - you can also drive a Kenworth to the corner store for a quart of milk but the Subaru makes more sense.

That short canoe gun was seen by several folks who decided they wanted one like it so Rathbun put it in the North Star West catalog.  The term has become quite common now meaning a short gun, light and handy.  It is not and never was intended to be a replication of a historical gun.  Our canoe gun is built exactly like the Northwest gun, with the exception of a short LOP and a 20" barrel.  I've seen where someone has cut down a Lyman rifle and called it a canoe gun.  I guess if it is short enough to load it sitting in a canoe (or on horseback etc. ) it qualifies as a canoe gun.     

[RAT]

Gooding (in his book on Hudson Day Co. trade guns) does an excellent job of detailing the specified barrel lengths used in the trade over time. No ultra short "canoe guns" were originally made. "Canoe gun" is a modern advertising term.

Company forts (and the indians themselves) did cut down trade guns to shorter lengths (both barrels and stocks). Short trade guns were used during Pontiac's rebellion to gain access to several forts. Many obsolete trade guns were cut down for running buffalo on the plains after cartridge guns became available. This is probably when most were done.

Dan makes a point about the quality of the steel and barrels bursting. This is also pointed out in Gooding's book. But many indian guns burst because of improper loading. Grass was most often used for wadding... if any wadding was used at all. If the ball moved forward from the powder during carrying or rolled forward when the gun was fired, the barrel would burst. Often close to the muzzle. Many were cut down as a result. 

[firelock-inc]

I have read about everything written on trade guns and have
never come across a canoe gun.

I have seen a lot of guns with their barrels shorten, but no canoe gun!

Rickp

[Long Ears]

And we wonder how history gets screwed up. Thanks Mattdog. Now after this get repeated 5000 times it will be George Washington himself that invented the Canoe Gun to cross the Potomac. Better wait for Dan to chine in but 1995! LOL! Bob

[elk killer]

i remember Ken Allman having what he called a canoe gun in the early 80s.
i saw a cut down NW Trade gun he had at that time
he said it was a original gun.. it may or may not have been..
Pecatonica as i remember..made the stock for a canoe gun Ken had made a pattern for..
at least thats what i was told

[Dan'l 1946]

Cut down long guns have been around for a very long time. It's the term "canoe gun" that's new. The guns themselves make for a light and handy trekking gun.  I handled one a while back and despite the slightly shorter pull, thought it was a neat little piece. I think it came from Northstar West--anyway, it was nicely made and shot accurately at hunting ranges.
                      Dan

[mattdog]

It's the term "canoe gun" that's new

Not so much that it is new but that it annoys people for some reason.  Ask Mike or Dan.

Of course it is new.  Any gun scholar knows that. No one is trying to pull the wool.  We don't need to be educated with stern warnings. 

How come we can build "barn guns" and "Po' Boys" but not "canoe guns"?

The reason why I defend them is because guys LIKE them.  I have three on order now and another order for a kit.  I don't make a big deal to market them but guys want them.  I have shot one extensively and caried it on treks.  It is exactly what I say it is, light, accurate, handy.  It doesnt have the cool factor of a NE fowler with a 55" barrel but it has it's own cool factor for beeing kind of ......cute.  and a real gun that kills stuff.  I have the testimonies of customers to back that up.