Question on shape of original Rear Sight Notches

[Artificer]

It hit me last night to look at the Virtual Library from the NRA’s National Firearms Museum for more details on original sights.  Thought maybe others might enjoy some I found.  I decided to start with Matchlocks, Wheellocks and Dog Locks to see how sights developed.  

There seems to have been a definite reduction in the size of Rear Sights from Matchlocks to the ALR.   I noticed this in the original Matchlocks used in International Muzzleloading competition.  Of course in the American Woodlands, smaller sights would have been less likely to get hung up in brush.  

Hope you all enjoy the links.

Here is a Matchlock Musket with a large almost Buckhorn rear sight.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/old-guns-in-a-new-world/case-5-the-handcannon-the-matchlock/english-matchlock-musket.aspx

Here is a Wheelock Musket with a Rear Sight not unlike later used on ALR’s.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/old-guns-in-a-new-world/case-6-the-wheel-lock/saxon-wheellock-musket.aspx

The “Mayflower” Wheelock Carbine (Rifle) with a Rear Sight that is closer to an ALR.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/old-guns-in-a-new-world/case-12-the-mayflower-gun/mayflower-wheellock-carbine.aspx

A French Wheelock Rifle with a pretty substantial Rear Sight.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/old-guns-in-a-new-world/case-13-exploration,-settlement,-survival-trade-in-the-new-world/french-wheellock-rifle.aspx

Here is a Doglock Musket with a Rear Sight shown in the second photo that would be right at home on an ALR.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/old-guns-in-a-new-world/case-7-the-snaphaunce,-the-doglock-the-miquelet/thomas-matson-doglock-musket.aspx

Here is a Doglock Rifle with a pretty substantial Rear Sight that can barely be seen in the first two photos.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/old-guns-in-a-new-world/case-11-artcraftsmanship-in-the-old-world-iv/samuel-depfer-cheek-stock-doglock-rifle.aspx

A 1730 “German English” Jaeger Rifle with what appears to be a “Medium Tall” Rear Sight?  
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-road-to-american-liberty/case-23-the-french-and-indian-war/germanenglish-flintlock-jaeger-rifle.aspx

A 1740 German Jaeger with what appears to be a replacement Rear Sight after the original one was taken off?  Note the empty dovetail ahead of the Rear Sight in the 4th Photo.  Did someone put the replacement Rear Sight on backwards? 
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-prospering-new-republic/case-28-romance-of-the-long-rifle/ambrose-frelig-flintlock-jaeger-rifle.aspx

Now THIS one is interesting.  A circa 1760 Pendrill Screw Breech loading Flintlock Rifle.  It has a notch in the tang to act as a Rear Sight.  The top of the screw breech has a groove to allow the tang notch to be used AND wide wings that would also act something like a Buckhorn sight?    Talk about a combination sight!  Grin.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-road-to-american-liberty/case-22-the-paper-cartridge/i-pendrill-flintlock-breechloading-rifle.aspx

Mathias Miller circa 1780 Rifle with common ALR sight shown in second photo.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-road-to-american-liberty/case-15-shot-heard-around-the-world/mathias-miller-pennsylvania-kentucky-flintlock.aspx

Jacob Albright Rifle with common Rear Sight best seen in 7th photo.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-prospering-new-republic/case-28-romance-of-the-long-rifle/jacob-albright-kentucky-rifle.aspx

Gus

[doug]

    I don't recall seeing any square sided and bottomed rear sights on any original guns that I have seen.  I also remain puzzled about how the tiny notches in the rear sight could have been seen in poor light.  Even when I was young and my eyes were better, I would have been hard pressed to shoot a gun with a tiny rear notch and a pointed barleycorn front sight

cheers mooncoon

[Artificer]

    I don't recall seeing any square sided and bottomed rear sights on any original guns that I have seen.  I also remain puzzled about how the tiny notches in the rear sight could have been seen in poor light.  Even when I was young and my eyes were better, I would have been hard pressed to shoot a gun with a tiny rear notch and a pointed barleycorn front sight

cheers mooncoon

Doug,

Though I don't know for certain, I speculate under low light conditions, they just used the barleycorn front sight like we use a bead on a shotgun.  If they were careful about the way they shouldered the gun, it would be fairly accurate for short range to maybe 50 yards?

Gus

[dlbarr]

Here is one that I thought interesting

I've seen one of those somewhere else before also, Dave. Kinda odd looking, isn't it?

[Curtis]

Curtis,
Since you own the rifle with that rear sight and have shot it, do you have any thoughts on how it compares to other types of rear sights?  That would be very interesting.

Gus, the sight picture works pretty much like a standard rear site,  however the enclosed arch does seem to aid in target acquisition.  I will have to take it out and try some long shots one of these days.

Curtis

[Artificer]

Curtis,
Since you own the rifle with that rear sight and have shot it, do you have any thoughts on how it compares to other types of rear sights?  That would be very interesting.

Gus, the sight picture works pretty much like a standard rear site,  however the enclosed arch does seem to aid in target acquisition.  I will have to take it out and try some long shots one of these days.

Curtis

Thanks Curtis, 

Maybe you have a fore runner of what is now called a "Ghost Ring" Sight.
Gus

[shortbarrel]

we are all thinking rear sights here. young folks and old folks have different eye pictures to the target. think they made them to suit their eyes.

[Vomitus]

    As you age,so does your vision. I like a shallow V with a skinny post and a brass wire soldered along the posts top. Just drop the "bead" into the Vee. I'm sixty one and am farsighted,like most old !@#$% are.    Musta been the same in the old days,me thinks. Modified sights had to be made then as they are now. A wide cold chisel would do the trick. I don't know if it's recorded anywhere, but seems like common sense to me.
   "Drawing a bead". My Dad was a military man(1940's) and what he showed me was to drop the front sight as deep as possible into the bottom of the notch. He called it "drawing a fine bead." He also sighted my first .22 in for me and explained as he did it. "Make the front sight 'square' in the bottom of the notch. Shoot right out to fifty yards. Over that,you're on your own." I shot quite well after a bit of practice and a later German Mauser I owned shot the same sight picture.

[Sawatis]

 Thought maybe others might enjoy some I found.  I decided to start with Matchlocks, Wheellocks and Dog Locks to see how sights developed.  

Gus

Hey Gus
In your perusal of the archives, did you notice any rear sights with folding leaves for range adjustment...this is something Jaegers were known for and have seen it on at least 2 old original LRs...
John

[Artificer]

 Thought maybe others might enjoy some I found.  I decided to start with Matchlocks, Wheellocks and Dog Locks to see how sights developed.  

Gus

Hey Gus
In your perusal of the archives, did you notice any rear sights with folding leaves for range adjustment...this is something Jaegers were known for and have seen it on at least 2 old original LRs...
John

Hi John,

I THINK the third Jaeger (the Military Jaeger)  in the following section has a folding sight with leaves.  Maybe the second as well, though I just can't see it well enough. 

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=109.0

Wow, if you have seen such a sight on two original American Longrifles, that is fascinating indeed!  Do you happen to remember the time period and where those rifles came from?

Gus

[Sawatis]

Yeah, I'm going to have to look...I took a picture of it. When I was at the engraving class with Wallace  3 years back it was one of the rifles he brought...will check my notes...but I think he said it was a Honoker...I'll try and post the pick when I get home tonight
John

[Artificer]

Yeah, I'm going to have to look...I took a picture of it. When I was at the engraving class with Wallace  3 years back it was one of the rifles he brought...will check my notes...but I think he said it was a Honoker...I'll try and post the pick when I get home tonight
John

That would be GREAT!  Would love to see it if you still have a pic of it.
Gus

[Dennis Glazener]

Yeah, I'm going to have to look...I took a picture of it. When I was at the engraving class with Wallace  3 years back it was one of the rifles he brought...will check my notes...but I think he said it was a Honoker...I'll try and post the pick when I get home tonight
John

Yeah, I'm going to have to look...I took a picture of it. When I was at the engraving class with Wallace  3 years back it was one of the rifles he brought...will check my notes...but I think he said it was a Honoker...I'll try and post the pick when I get home tonight
John

I have seen that rifle and the one I am thinking about was not a Honaker. Very early, I am pretty sure it had sling swivels on it. Maybe Mark Elliott, Ed Wenger, Larry Luck or one of the others that was at one of our Richmond Bar-b-q get to-gather's, can remember absolutely wonderful gun. I believe it was over at "Extra Billy's" on Broad St. Great handling, lightweight gun early gun.
Dennis

[Artificer]

Dennis,

That sounds lovely.  Would really like to see a picture or pictures of it, if possible.
Gus

[Dennis Glazener]

None of us made photos, I guess you will have to wait for Wallace's book/s to get to see it! Unless I happen to have one of his display at our first longrifle show. He may have had that one on display with the rest of his Early rifles.
Dennis

[Artificer]

Really looking forward to that book.  Thanks for the info Dennis.
Gus

[Sawatis]

OK...Lets see if this works Here are 2 pics
Top view

and a side view...its the one to the rear...sorry for the blur...I'm not much of a photographer


The folding leaf did not look like an after though, but looked like it was made with the sight and the patina on it matched the rest of the sight and barrel.

If Wallace ends up bringing this rifle again at WKU next month I will definitely query him on this topic...
John