Percussion Drum Problem

[iloco]

I bought a percussion 54 caliber rifle and when I started to clean it I found the cleaning jag would not go all the way to the bottom of the bore.  I checked and have found that the drum is extending into the barrel to far and is stopping the cleaning jag.
  I am not a gun builder and have no idea what needs to be done to remedy this problem.  Any suggestions before I start looking for a gunsmith or gun builder to help with this problem.

[Ky-Flinter]

Is it a CVA, Thompson, Traditions, etc.?  If so, I'm not sure what I would do.  They are made differently than custom built guns.

If it is a regular screw in drum, and if it were my gun, I would first mark the drum with a magic marker, so that when I remove the drum I can tell how it sits in relation to the barrel.  With the drum removed, measure the wall thickness of the barrel in the center of the hole and the top and bottom of the hole.  Then file the threaded end of the drum to match the wall thicknesses. 

Maybe I'm going overboard, but I wouldn't just file the drum threads off flat, but rather try to fill the threads in the barrel completely.  In other words, the face of the threaded end of the drum would be concave to match the radius of the bore.  This should have been done during the building of the gun, with the breech plug out, so the builder could see what he was doing.

-Ron

[iloco]

It is a custom built gun but have no idea who the maker was.
 I will contact Dale Johnson and see if he can help me with this problem. Thanks for the reply.
It is a regular screw in drum.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

iloco:  If the drum was installed entirely forward of the breech plug threads, in other words, does not interfere with the removal of the breech plug, you are in luck.  Remove the breech plug, and with a ball stone on a Dremel rotary tool, grind off the offending protrusion down to the barrel.  This part of the drum is not making the joint between the drum and the barrel any stronger, and is a nuisance.  In an ideal situation, the builder would have used a barrel with sufficient wall thickness to completely house the full length of the drum's threaded journal.  Original rifles traditionally have thick walls at the breech, but modern barrels, in order to make them lighter for today's inferior man, are often much thinner.  I site an example that I have experience with in the first years of my 'career'.

I was handed a 13/16" x .45 calibre barrel and a 5/16" x 24 threaded drum, and asked to make a rifle around it.  Long story short, the drum and the barrel parted company not long after the client took delivery...my fault entirely, of course.  That was the last time I installed a drum in any barrel, and the last time I worked on a rifle with a 13/16" barrel.

[iloco]

Taylor the barrel as near as I can tell is 7/8 inch with a wall thickness of 3/16 inch.  I may be in luck and the drum maybe ahead of the breech plug.  I will let Dale Johnson have a look at it tomorrow. 

[galamb]

I was handed a 13/16" x .45 calibre barrel and a 5/16" x 24 threaded drum, and asked to make a rifle around it.  Long story short, the drum and the barrel parted company not long after the client took delivery...my fault entirely, of course.  That was the last time I installed a drum in any barrel, and the last time I worked on a rifle with a 13/16" barrel.

Goes to my rule #1 for caplocks - always build with a patent style breech.

If I want a "drum", install it in the plug portion of a Hawken style flint breech - especially if using a light barrel. Or better yet, go with an Ohio patent from Pete Allen with the drum cast in to the plug.

[Dphariss]

I bought a percussion 54 caliber rifle and when I started to clean it I found the cleaning jag would not go all the way to the bottom of the bore.  I checked and have found that the drum is extending into the barrel to far and is stopping the cleaning jag.
  I am not a gun builder and have no idea what needs to be done to remedy this problem.  Any suggestions before I start looking for a gunsmith or gun builder to help with this problem.

There are a number of problems associated with the drum and the modern versions are surely the worst. First, all I have seen, the modern ones, are  cold rolled steel and if not well supported can break off due to the material being shock sensitive and having no radius on the cuts. If there is no seat cut on the drum  for the nipple base they leak gas or anything else in the barrel, patent breeches will do the same thing if not properly machined. There is no fence to prevent fragments from striking the shooters face, and it happens my first ML was a D&N rifle and I got at least one cut on my face from a cap fragment.  The D&N was a cheap way to make a percussion from a flint and it carried over. Its still a cheap and marginally safe for the shooter and bystanders, way to make a percussion gun and this has been known from the beginning of the percussion era.
The old drums were better in one way so far as being far more ductile and would bend rather than break.

Personally I would cut the barrel off and put on a "patent" breech. Like Taylor I have not put a drum in a barrel in decades. I think I only did maybe 3 at the most anyway.  

Dan

[JBJ]

Dan raises what seems to be a reasonable concern about the use of cold rolled steel as drum material. A question for the metallurgists  on the Forum -would turning a drum from something like a grade 5 bolt and careful fitting to the lock cutout improve the situation? I have made drums in the past and was always careful to leave a radius at the juncture of the threads and the body of the drum (as opposed to a sharp right angle), countersink the barrel enough to accept the radius, and carefully fit the drum to the lock plate to gain all of the support that I could. Thoughts??

J.B.

[Long Ears]

Goes to my rule #1 for caplocks - always build with a patent style breech.

If I want a "drum", install it in the plug portion of a Hawken style flint breech - especially if using a light barrel. Or better yet, go with an Ohio patent from Pete Allen with the drum cast in to the plug.

galamb , could you give me the contact information for Pete Allen? Thanks, Bob

[Acer Saccharum]

I never liked drums, as they ALWAYS move. They are one of my peeves. They were, as Dan points out, an invention to easily convert flint to percussion.

If you do have a drum arrangement, please make sure of:
1) good thread fit between barrel and drum
2) never, never remove the drum. this changes the fit and timing of the drum, and soon it is loose, and moves on you while shooting.
3) do not over-tighten during installation. This can start a stress crack between body of drum and its threads, or start to strip out the barrel threads.
4) have good support under the drum from the lock plate. this will help keep the drum rock solid.
5) DO have a cleanout screw on the end. Make sure that is a good fit, too. If a loose, or stripped fit, it's like a bullet that will leave the drum on some random day.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tom, I don't know your thinking about the clean-out screw.  I don't like them, and see no advantage.  I've never seen one whose screw driver slot wasn't boogered.  The threads seem to be a receptacle for fowling and gas cutting, and when you try to turn them out, the screw head suffers.  Commercial clean-out screws are made from something similar to hard cheese, and they are always ruined by the time I see them.

[hammer]

Are they truly intended to be clean out screws?  I.e. intended to be removed to allow the nipple channel to be cleaned?  Or just a plug to fill the exposed end of the nipple channel?   I suspect the latter.   The spare original English tubes I have seen have a square end to be used to turn the tube into the barrel and then be sawn off.    No through hole.   I don't like the idea of that little screw being removed and reinserted each time the gun is used.    Year after year .......

[galamb]

Bob, I did respond to your PM with info on Allan breeches.

For others interested, they are available through Track of the Wolf (most of the time) http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/666/1.

Dixon's also stocks them. Or you can contact the Allan Foundry directly by calling (763) 786-2186

(One other note - just noted a Lock from Allan on the market now - advertised as a Fowler/Hudson Valley style - can take a look here http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs2cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=4406843.2706&product=Locks&user4=Pete%20Allan%20flintlock)

[Bob Roller]

 I see drums installed in thin wall barrels and cringe at the sight of them.
 Even with fine threads and 90% depth,they are still a risk.
 
Bob Roller

[iloco]

Dale Johnson fixed the rifle for me.  Now the clening jag does not catch on the threads of the drum.
 I don't understand why so many are saying a drum is not safe when they were installed on hundred's of rifles back through the years.  The original lemans had drums and nipples.
  I think sometimes we get to technical in our modern age. Just my opinion.
Lots and lots of old mountain rifles had drums installed in them. I have a 36 caliber with drum and nipple and it has been shot hundreds of time. Guess I am not savy enough to understand lots of things that others know about.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Bob nailed it iloco...drums in THIN barrels.  I've seen lots of originals, mostly converted flint rifles and guns, but the breech diameter of the barrels is always around 1" or more, even in small bored guns.  It's the case of the 13/16" breech with a .45 cal bore that is sort of the worst case example.  The drum needs about 1/4" of barrel wall for it's threaded journal, and the lock plate must be fitted perfectly to support the drum.  Once it's installed, leave it alone.  I've seen folks build convertible flint to percussion, and back, guns.  Disaster looking for a place to happen.

[JTR]

iloco, I'm with you as I don't understand this fear either.

I've seen way more than my fair share of old rifles, certainly in the many many hundreds if not thousands, and I've yet to see one with the drum blown out. And a lot with the barrel metal around the drum so corroded away from the percussion cap to make you wonder how everything held together. Sure, some of that is after time of use corrosion, but certainly not all.

Also, with all this concern about the drum, why no concern about the breech plug? Same deal, a plug screwed into the barrel, just bigger. Plus most of the old guns used a very course thread, yet it all held together?

I'm sure that nineteenth century steel wasn't superior to modern steel?
Are All modern drums made of cold rolled steel?  

Plus today I'd guess that there are many times more percussion guns around than flint, yet nothing on the news about these things blowing up (breaking off drums). With all the anti-gun stuff around today, I can't imagine the media ignoring it if these things were blowing on a regular basis.

John

[sqrldog]

I have personally witnessed one drum break off a gun as it was fired. Fortunately.no one was standing beside the shooter. The drum bounced off the shooting range support post and made a hole in the metal roof before falling to the dirt floor of the shooting shed. I have also watched.thousands of rounds fired by rifles using a drum and nipple without any problems. The gun that failed had a very strong mainspring and the drum was not supported by the lockplate. I used a half stock TN .40 cal 15/16" barrel with a drum and nipple for years in competitive shooting without a problem. Given a choice I would not use a drum and nipple on a thin wall barrel. I made rifles for my sons years ago that used a drum and nipple in a 15/16" .54 cal barrel but on the advice of a competent gunsmith friend used a deeper counterbored breech plug and supported the drum through the barrel and breech plug. 30 years later no problems.

[Dphariss]

Dan raises what seems to be a reasonable concern about the use of cold rolled steel as drum material. A question for the metallurgists  on the Forum -would turning a drum from something like a grade 5 bolt and careful fitting to the lock cutout improve the situation? I have made drums in the past and was always careful to leave a radius at the juncture of the threads and the body of the drum (as opposed to a sharp right angle), countersink the barrel enough to accept the radius, and carefully fit the drum to the lock plate to gain all of the support that I could. Thoughts??

J.B.

Easier to just use a patent breech.  Changing the drum material only solves one of the issues.

Dan

[Habu]

Or better yet, go with an Ohio patent from Pete Allen with the drum cast in to the plug.

I really like these, especially for use with back-action locks.  Unfortunately, they aren't available in sizes to match the larger barrels used on some of the late Plains rifles.  But where they work, they are great!

[Acer Saccharum]

I've seen shooters fiddle with their drums, take them out for cleaning. Threads get worn, drum goes past location when re-installing, teflon tape or loc-tite to try to keep the drum from moving, copper shims between drum and barrel, and more....

So I pick up all my stuff and move to the upwind side of the shooter, and advise him to have the range officer check out his gun.

We've all made mistakes, but please don't invite them.