Author Topic: Mainspring Care  (Read 7546 times)

mjm46@bellsouth.net

  • Guest
Mainspring Care
« on: May 06, 2014, 04:48:15 AM »
I had a mainspring explode on me the other day.

I called Jim Chambers and described my process for removing a mainspring. I told him that I would half cock the lock then attaching my spring vise then de-cock the lock and the spring just lifts out. Then I left the spring in the vise. My thought was that the spring in the half cock position would not be too stressed. Jim listened very calmly then said I was doing 2 things wrong.

Here is the correct procedure. First he said, leave the lock un-cocked then apply the vise and tighten it just enough to lift the spring out of the lock. Then secondly remove the spring from the vise. He said the half cock position applies too much tension applied evenly across the spring while it is sitting in the vise.

I just thought I'd pass this along. First spring I ever broke but I didn't like doing it. I guess I was just lucky.

Jim told me to just send the broken one back and he'd send me a new one. But since it was my fault I just ordered 2 one for a spare incase I get careless again!

Springs make the oddest sound when they shatter, and surprisingly loud.


Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2014, 05:09:14 AM »
I broke one same way, and bought two, because it was operator error.  ;D
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 06:14:09 AM »
I had a mainspring explode on me the other day.

I called Jim Chambers and described my process for removing a mainspring. I told him that I would half cock the lock then attaching my spring vise then de-cock the lock and the spring just lifts out. Then I left the spring in the vise. My thought was that the spring in the half cock position would not be too stressed. Jim listened very calmly then said I was doing 2 things wrong.

Here is the correct procedure. First he said, leave the lock un-cocked then apply the vise and tighten it just enough to lift the spring out of the lock. Then secondly remove the spring from the vise. He said the half cock position applies too much tension applied evenly across the spring while it is sitting in the vise.

I just thought I'd pass this along. First spring I ever broke but I didn't like doing it. I guess I was just lucky.

Jim told me to just send the broken one back and he'd send me a new one. But since it was my fault I just ordered 2 one for a spare incase I get careless again!

Springs make the oddest sound when they shatter, and surprisingly loud.



What did the "oddest sound" sound like Micah?  I missed it when the one I left in a spring vise exploded during the night while I was asleep.   :D

JB2

  • Guest
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 03:37:30 PM »
Good tip!  I'll have to try to remember that, cuz I've been doing it wrong.  Haven't had one blow up yet.

Offline Keb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1193
  • south Ohio
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 04:32:02 PM »
I just had one explode in 3 pieces while trying to compress it to mount it in an Early Ketland. It was a brand new replacement spring and had never been installed. I started to compress it with a spring vise a little at a time trying to sneak up on it. Before I could get it compressed tight enough to go in place, !!!POW!!! and "look out". I've never had one break in 3 pieces before. It broke at the bend and the curl that rubs on the tumbler snapped off. I assume it broke off from the shock of the spring breaking. It was a replacement spring I got from Chambers that day, too. I've used many of their locks without ever breaking a thing. I'm now going for my 3rd main spring on this lock. I sent them the whole lock back hoping they can get a spring in it. We'll see.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2014, 05:28:30 PM »
I took the spring from my Colonial lock, and tempered it in the oven for an hour or so at 450 or 475 deg [ can't remember exactly, but I have it written down somewhere ]  then let it cool slowly.  The spring still works great and  my perception is that it seems slightly more forgiving  re stresses. 

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2014, 08:27:41 PM »
 also. Never put blue remover on a spring. There is a warning on birchwood casy blue remover. It sounds like BS but believe it.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2014, 09:46:05 PM »
I do hope no one takes this as a personal criticism, but this way of taking a mainspring out is new to me.  

Actually I’ve been warned it was easier to break a main spring by taking all the pressure of it and taking it out of a mainspring vise and then putting the main spring back in the spring vise and slowly and carefully tightening it down enough to get it back in the lock.  

I may be extremely fortunate in that I’ve never broken a mainspring and I have lost track of how many hundreds of original and repro Civil War era gun locks, original and repro Military Flintlock locks and original and reproduction civilian percussion and flintlock locks I’ve taken apart over the years.  I realize Military Locks have much more robust Main Springs than civilian locks, but I’ve never had the problem with original or repro civilian locks.

Could this problem be related to the springs that were cast and then finished as opposed to springs that were forged?  I know I’ve read here many times that there is no difference in springs made from castings when they are hardened and annealed properly, but I have to admit the advice gives me pause.

The 1861 Ordnance Manual has this to say about taking Main Springs out of (Military) Locks.  

1.  Cock the piece, and put the spring-vice on the main spring; give the thumb-screw (of the vise) a turn sufficient to liberate the spring from the swivel (stirrup) and main-spring notch.  Remove the spring.

Please note that I added explanations in parentheses that are not part of the original wording.  Also, I got a kick out of the fact they spelled the word Vise as “Vice.”  It does not say to Cock the Hammer to Half Cock and I found that interesting.  It sounds like they meant Cock it to Full Cock, but I was taught and always cocked main springs to half cock like Micah mentioned in his first post.  

In another section, the Ordnance Manual states the test for a new Main Spring is to compress it in a “Spring Safe,” the same amount as if it were fully cocked, for a period of at least 12 hours and then check it to see that it did not fail (crack, bust or compress and not spring back).  Then to check it in another spring vise to ensure it still gave 70 to 75 pounds of tension.  

I don’t pretend to know everything, but this recommended procedure to take the Main Springs off locks is new to me.  What am I missing?

Gus
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 10:35:02 PM by Artificer »

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2014, 11:06:41 PM »
If one fools with enough springs sooner or later one will break. Everything done is subject to flaws . It makes no difference if it is cast or forged. I always cock the spring to half cock and install the spring clamp and replace the same way. One time I had a lock sitting on the bench. It had been sitting there for a couple of days. I heard that tink, the kind of tink that nothing else sounds like. Guise what. The main spring broke. The lock was on half cock and that lock had been used for years. That's the way the nature of springs is.
 On the other hand I had a French flintlock shotgun that had springs that were made of crucible steel. You could actually see the grain in the steel on the back of the main springs. They were made from wrought iron and had been there from about 1800. They even had what looked like cracks in them at places. As far as I know they are still working.  They were very strong springs. Hundreds of old springs were just shaped wit ha rasp and left that way.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 11:10:09 PM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Joe S

  • Guest
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2014, 11:36:40 PM »
It seems to me that a spring should be able to withstand reasonable compression indefinitely.  Are mainsprings that break while simply being compressed as described flawed?  The flaw could either be in the material, or more likely, in the heat treatment.

Jerry?  Metallurgists?

Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2014, 11:38:40 PM »
  I would think it best to use no more compression than necessary to get it free from the lock. As far as forged against cast, the forged would be slightly less apt to break easily, but it doesn't have to be hammer forged, merely shaped red hot in its bends from bar stock is an equal. All steel will have inclusions, and occlusions. Steel grains themselves have no direction once heated after being rolled and finished in the bar forming process at the mill. The rollers that form the bars stretch, close, and compact any inclusions or occlusions, and stretch  the grains in the direction of the roll, but once re-heated, grains re-form into haphazard shapes. What does add directional strength is that grains will collect at the borders of the directional impurities, similar to a stitched button hole, making tiny unit like structures. A casting will have no directional strength at all, but if well cast is only slightly less strong. Breakage in cast springs is almost always traceable to poor handling, and, or, occlusions. Gas or air pockets, or just poor casting.

Offline shortbarrel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 12:57:53 AM »
had a 1873 military revolver in the shop, that I made a trigger spring for. Gun was made to change the mainspring and trigger spring in the field in about 3 minutes. Springs brake.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 01:07:23 AM »
Question -  how is my leaving my lock on half cock all day when hunting, any different than leaving the spring in my clamp ?  Would it be better to adjust the clamp so that there is a single point of contact near the spring ends  [ I try and do this ]
Is this actually easier on the spring?
I have had only one main spring break. It happened when I was out hunting. A large Siler flint lock with a couple thousand firings on it.   It was  below zero at the time and as it turned out, the spring broke right at what looked like an internal air bubble .

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2014, 01:11:49 AM »
It seems to me that a spring should be able to withstand reasonable compression indefinitely.  Are mainsprings that break while simply being compressed as described flawed?  The flaw could either be in the material, or more likely, in the heat treatment.

Jerry?  Metallurgists?


Joe,

Many people here have reported the main springs in their commercial locks have lasted since the 60's, 70's and 80's and that with a lot of target shooting and hunting.  So for most practical purposes, main springs will last indefinitely for most people today with commercial made locks.  Of course that is with reasonable care and figuring one doesn't leave the Cock/Hammer continuously cocked for long periods of time.  IOW, if you aren't out shooting or hunting with the lock, don't leave it half cocked or full cocked.  

The longest I have ever kept a mainspring in a mainspring vise was maybe 16 hours and have never had one break, though that was Military Musket Lock springs and not civilian style mainsprings.

Gus

  


Joe S

  • Guest
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2014, 01:33:16 AM »
Interesting. 

A military musket spring would be more stressed than a thinner civilian spring.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9689
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 01:55:55 AM »
 John Taylor who was an African hunter said he bought a hammer type double rifle that had been stored for i5 years with one lock at full cock and it worked fine when he let it down.
I have tested my new locks by leaving them in the freezer overnight and had no problems.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 03:28:26 AM »

Quite a few years ago, our group of shooters decided it was foolish to shoot in any weather below -23 C.  Mainsprings were breaking one after the other one day when we were on our trail.  It isn't near that cold in the summer.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Habu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1190
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 05:07:56 AM »
I thought I just had lousy luck in cold weather, I've had more than one cast mainspring break below -10F: about the same as Taylor's -23C.  Forged springs did better, but I did hear one well-worn hammer spring in a 94 Winchester let go at about -20F.  Fortunately, when temps get that cold around here, they don't last for long. 

I was once told that below about -15F or so, you want your springs to be dry--no oil--as they are less likely to break.  He'd spent much of the 19-teens trapping in northern Alberta, so I figured he had enough experience with it to have an opinion. 

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 05:37:32 AM »
Interesting. 

A military musket spring would be more stressed than a thinner civilian spring.

Joe,

I am not an mechanical engineer, so I do not know how to work out comparative stresses between Military Lock Springs and Civilian Springs.  I THINK that the much larger and thicker Military Lock Springs may actually have less stress on them due to the larger mass of the military springs.  However, I could be completely mistaken.  

Gus  

Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 12:39:26 PM »
  I think I would agree Gus, but one must also consider the types of spring steel used. Simple steels such as the 10XX types do not have the shock resistance of some of the higher alloyed steels formulated for use as springs. That said however, many of the springs in early locks are still intact, although some may be replacements.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9689
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 02:24:55 PM »


Quite a few years ago, our group of shooters decided it was foolish to shoot in any weather below -23 C.  Mainsprings were breaking one after the other one day when we were on our trail.  It isn't near that cold in the summer.

So that means you have slush on the ponds instead of ice?

Bob Roller

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 03:15:39 PM »
It is minus 2 here this morning. Edges of the pond froze again.  Hope Summer comes on a weekend this year  ;D

mjm46@bellsouth.net

  • Guest
Re: Mainspring Care
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2014, 04:16:33 PM »
It could be that this spring may have had a hidden defect. The lock was brand new and the frizzen was unmarked, never struck with a flint. I cocked and un-cocked it several times and it seemed fine, but never actually sparked it.

Intuitively speaking one would think that a lock could stay at half cock indefinitely, and that removing the spring at the half cock position would be safe.

When I examined the broken spring I noticed a couple of things. One was a little dark area in the bend at the free end of the spring, this I figured was either a bubble or a carbon inclusion and was a likely failure spot, but this was not under compression by the vise. But the other spot was at the position of the vise jaw pad where I had it placed on the spring.

The three pieces were, the top of the spring including the bend and a 3/8" past the bend (the width of the vise pad). The center of the bottom of the spring, and the hook on the free end.

The center portion fits exactly between the vise jaw pads. I found that interesting.

I'm not an engineer of any kind but looking at this in a common sense way, I think the  vise definitely contributed to the spring failure by moving the flex point more towards the free end of the spring and increasing compression on the arm by shortening the span.

I've always used both pads of the vise in contact with the lower arm of the spring, I think I will start using the vise with the bend of the spring placed in the corner before the pad so the spring compresses more normally over the length of the arm. Don't know if that will help at all, but it can't hurt to try.

I think I'll follow Jim Chambers' advice about removing the spring from relaxed and then removing it from the vise. He has more experience with locks than I'll ever have. Then if one breaks, I'll be confident I did things right.

As some have mentioned springs will be springs.