patch material burning up

[Daryl]

Daryl haven,t had a chance to check the crown yet.  What type of patches or material are you using that your getting the accuracy you want for hunting?

Pretty much the same as smallpatch, LB, Taylor and most everyone else we shoot with and now many others on this forum - we use denim in around 10 ounce weight (.0225") or red/white/blue/blue  ticking at .225"/.0230".  The MT is fabulous stuff- quite soft, but VERY strong and works in ALL my guns, even with the .032" balls in my .32cal rifle's .320" bore as well as the .398" balls in my .40's, .398" bore. I use a short starter and a smack with my hand to get them started, then down they go with the rifle's hickory rod.
8 ounce denim should work OK with many loads, but keep the ball only .005" under bore size, or larger.

Measuring thicknesses depends much on the technique and tool used. Most of us fail to get the same readings on the same material due to tools and technique.

This is why I specified 8 and 10 ounce denim.

I use 12 ounce denim in my .69 with a .684" ball, as well as with the 15 bore ball at .677". With the smaller ball, I can use almost ANY alloy of lead- certainly standard WW alloys.  The larger, pure lead ball is actually more accurate at 200yards, but the difference is minimal - thus is the nicety of large bores - ie: they are little effected by differences which can screw up small bore shooting accuracy.  The larger the bore, the easier they are to get to shoot well.

[oldways]

 Purchased a yard of denim for patch material, will see how it works. Pillow ticking is 100% cotton have red and white and the blue and white from wal-mart. Finally got a chance to look at the muzzle ,it looked OK but I went ahead and used some fine emery cloth and some finish scotch brite on the crown to see if it helps. Hope to get out and shoot sometime this week. Still need to order tow mink oil to see how it works.

[bgf]

Walmart pillow ticking used to work for me, but the last batch failed miserably!  After that cotton duck lasted for a while, but then started shredding with a new batch.  I then switched to denim from Walmart, and that worked until it got so I couldn't find it.  10oz. Bull denim from Joann's works well now, and I got a big lot of it in natural color.  From two GM barrels, a .40 and a .50.  I think material varies from batch to batch, in ways that do not affect pants and shirts, but may fail as patching.  The .50 is higher pressure than the .54; I notice some difference between my .50 and .40--the .40 is harder on patches a little bit.  Keep watching your patches.

[oldways]

Well if the material I purchased fails, I can try Joann's there main warehouse is only ten miles from were I live. Hopefully tomorrow will tell.

[jamesthomas]

 The red stripe is usually .015 thick while the blue stripe is usually .018, both have worked well in my .40 cal. with .395 Rbs. At my JoAnns some of the blue stripe is mattress ticking which is .024 thick. I use this for my .50 cal. using .490's in my Green Mountain barrel.

[Daryl]

Oldways - that should work - it certainly will not hurt.

[oldways]

Went to Joann's today and bought two different fabrics. 10 oz. papyrus bull denim and a material called drill 40 unbleached. Both are 100% cotton. Hope to get out to shoot Friday,will use Mr. flintlocks lube and 75 grs. of goex 2f powder. I did order the mink oil paste from tow.

[Daryl]

Sounds good.
As to loads - in a .54, I'd start with around 80gr., roughly 3 drams and go up from there - if you are interested in finding the rifle's most accurate load, that is.

 I suggest that with a slippery lube and shooting groups at 100yards or meters, you'll be in the 120gr. range with 2f before you find the rifle shooting nice round 2" groups.

Restricting yourself to a single, very mild powder charge like 75gr. is unlikely to net you the accuracy the rifle is capable of producing, but for a test using to merely stop the burning of patches, I guess it will do, but prove little else.  If with 10 ounce denim and a light charge like that, if the patches do fail, I'd be thinking that barrel is rotted inside - perhaps from phony black powder use or nasty misuse in the past.

[Vomitus]

When LB noted he gets no fouling, what he is actually saying, is that the fouling if not dry or crusty, or building up- that he NEVER has to clean the barrel while shooting for the day's event - only after all the shooting is over.

Geez Daryls,thanx for that correction. yes,there is always fouling but I "wash" it down the bore with the next patch/ball. So I guess you could say say I wipe with every new load.hehehe

[Hungry Horse]

  I know this is going to add about ninety pages to this thread, but here it goes. I had the same problem with the .50 cal. Gillespie hog rifle I build many years ago. It burned the patches to the point, that they often couldn't be found. I tried every kind of magic wizgoop conceivable. I had every self-proclaimed expert known to man give me the straight stuff on what the problem was. None of it worked. I used bigger balls, smaller balls, thick patches, thin patches, and the ever popular over powder patch, and then an O/P wad, all to no avail. This barrel was an old Montana .50 cal. with deep cut rifleings in a 1-72" twist. It now shoots like a dream. I shoot a .490 ball, with 10-12 thousandths pocket drill, lubed with a venison tallow, and bear grease, mixture, over 90 grins. of 3F Goex. You can literally thumb start the load. It shoots like a dream. Everybody at the local gun club says it can't shoot tight loaded like that, right up until they get their butts whipped. You just have to find the right combination. Some times you have to ignore those experts that say something can't work.

                        Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

HH:  I applaud your persistence and congratulate you on finding what your barrel likes.  That is the bottom line.

[Daryl]

 Sorry LB - no correction meant - merely a clarification of what we find normal - I merely included the statement because there seem to be lots of guys who still don't understand.

HHorse -  The guys at your club think .010" patch and a .010"-under ball is tight, eh, - no wonder you can beat them.

I find the combinations I currently use and advise, work in EVERY barrel I've tried them in.  I've never found a single barrel they didn't work in (except for H. Tonges FIRST .50 barrel cut), including those shallow grooved Italian .58's and the .028" deep .45 cal. Bauska barrel I had, the .025" deep Getz .75 cal, any of the dozen's of .010 to .012"standard rifling barrels by Bauska, Rice, GM, TC's cheaply made buttoned barrels and the progressive depth rifling of the PHale and Italian .58 Enfields - all 3 models in PH and the M1861 in the Italian/Confederate short rifle.

Never claimed to be one of the experts that you refer to above, however when you've shot the powder and lead I have, you gain experience in what works and what doesn't.  I've never had a patch thinner than .020" give me the accuracy I demand - perhaps our 'demands' are different - or as Taylor suggested and I noted, that barrel is one of a kind.

I'm sure Hugh's FIRST barrel would have shot to my satisfaction, had I worked with it long enough - but it would not shoot "the load", thus I abandoned it. Today, with another 30 years of experience behind me in shooting ML's, I know I gave up too early.  At that time, I was consistently shooting open sighted 1/2 stocked rifles under 2" at 100yards off the bags.  Anything else was not good enough.

[Hungry Horse]

Daryl;

  You appear to be looking through the wrong end of the scope again. I said just the opposite. They all usually used patching material in the 15 to 20 thousandth range. We tried all of that, ticking, pocket drill, and even linen, along with an incredible array of patch lubes, and charges.  Every time another muzzleloading expert showed up, to straighten me out, we marched through the same routine, and once again it didn't work. I've been shooting muzzleloader since 1972. This ain't my first rodeo. If this gun wasn't something different, I wouldn't have mentioned it. The only difference I have found, between this barrel, and other from the same maker, is this one seems to have deeper riflings. The gun shoots better than I do, now that the old eyes aren't what they used to be.

                 Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

HH:  do you shoot all day without having to clean?  Do you clean after every 3 - 5 shots?  Do you wipe after each shot?  I'm sorry if I've forgotten your regime.

[Hungry Horse]

 You can plink all day without cleaning, but for best results, swabbing after every couple of shots makes a difference. I do believe that he rifling depth is the issue here. I recall a Bill Large barrel, with very deep rifling that had a similar issue. I think it was easier to sort out, because it wasn't such a slow twist. I believe the large powder charge needed to stabilize the ball, combined with the extra deep rifling created this problem.

               HH

[Vomitus]

   H H. How deep are the grooves in that fifty? If your patch doesn't fill the groove, you are getting blow by. Are they round or angular groove bottoms? My way of thinking is you gotta fill the groove or it'll just fill with fouling and shoot eradic after that!

[Hungry Horse]

 I think what happens is, when you fill the grooves with patching, and use a relatively heavy charge ( needed to stabilize the ball with such a slow twist) the ball obturates and forces the patching against the lands, and bottom of the grooves, with such force that the material simply shreds. The lighter patching probably leaks initially, but then seals a short way from the breech, due to the deformation of the ball. I have not measured the rifling depth in several years, but I believe it was about 16 thousandths deep, and square bottomed, when it was new. I won the barrel at a rendezvous, and have little doubt it was a factory second.
 Of course my B.S. degree is still on hold from back in 1969, So, this is just a wild a?? guess.

               Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Hungry Horse- check your own optics - your words::  " You can literally thumb start the load. It shoots like a dream.  Everybody at the local gun club says it can't shoot tight loaded like that".

[Hungry Horse]

Daryl;

  That would be LOOSE loads. don't listen to what I say listen to what I mean.

   Hungry Horse