Author Topic: patch material burning up  (Read 21237 times)

Offline oldways

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patch material burning up
« on: May 09, 2014, 10:31:43 PM »
Hi, I'm new here just finished my first flintlock. I,m not new to shooting black powder,been shooting percussion rifle over 30 years. Last two times out shooting my new rifle the patches burnt up! Using the same lube and material I've been using in my 54 cal. t. c. renegade with no problems. pillow ticking and ballistol 6 to 1 mix. I did switch lube to mr. flintlock

Offline ehoff

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 10:50:36 PM »
Well its time to experiment, muzzle loaders can be very particular on what they like  or don't like (kind of like a woman). What works for one may not work for another one.

First what is your load? How may grains powder, patch thickness, ball diameter.


Offline bob in the woods

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 11:15:45 PM »
T.C barrels had/have shallower rifling than some of the barrels used on muzzleloaders made by individuals..Colerain, Rice,Rayle,  etc.  The thickness of patch that worked in your TC may not be heavy enough to work well in your new rifle.
If you read some of the posts Daryl has made re ball size, and patches, lube etc you will be well on the road to a combo that will work for you.  Example- my .54 likes a .535 ball with a 22 thou patch.  Patch is wet with lube , or if hunting soaked with bear oil or Track of the Wolf's mink oil   Back in the days when I had an Italian made "Hawken",  I used a .530 ball and a 12 thou patch [  store bought pre cut/lubed patches]

Offline oldways

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 11:27:25 PM »
80 grains of goex 2f, 17 ths. thickness pillow ticking and a cast .490 rd. ball, patches didn't burn using Mr. flintlock lube. Other material that did burn was prelubed strip of ticking  and let dry cut at muzzle ,same that I use in my 54 cal. same load but no problem with patch. bob in the woods both are green mountain round ball barrels same twist rate.

Offline George Sutton

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 12:21:02 AM »
Hi,  with 80 grains, of 2f, 17 thousands pillow ticking patches should not be burning up.

I would recommend you try 3f.

Are you sure that your pillow ticking is 100% cotton? If it has any polyester in it, they will burn up. 

Who's barrel did you use? Is the new rifle's barrel cutting the patches? This could lead to the burning of your patches.

Post some pictures of the patches so we can see what's happening.

Centershot,  AKA Mr. Flintlock

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 01:33:03 AM »
I honestly don't know why you have the problem with the 50 when you don't have it with the 54 except my intuition tells me that the .50 may be operating at a higher pressure . That combined with the dry patch could be the cause.
I'm not a fan of "dry" patches , myself.   Never had much luck with them.

Vomitus

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 05:23:46 AM »
   Is the muzzle crowned? If not, a good chance the patch may be cutting as you load.(which will leave a gap and produce a burning patch.)

Offline Don Steele

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 01:01:27 PM »
I'm with Leatherbelly...
The combination he's using shouldn't be causing patches to "burn up".
He's shooting a NEW rifle..."just finished".
Sharp muzzle crown patch-cutting might very well be where the problem is starting.
It may be time for some 4/0 steel wool and thumb to go to work on that crown.
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline J Henry

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 04:11:36 PM »
  Wondering???I have a tool for sharpening bit used to drill square holes on a drill press.  Could that be used to "crown" a barrel?? It has a  bevel to it and it polishes/sharpens, the bit to a smooth finish, almost In theory it should work ,,but will it,,anyone try it before???  I have a Junkur that I am in the process of  rebuilding and have nothing invested.

Offline oldways

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2014, 04:24:12 PM »
Hi I'm back,watching grand kids makes it hard to give prompt replies thank all of you for your help. My material is 100% pillow ticking washed and tumbled dried. patches are totally burned up so no pictures to post. The barrel is a 50 cal. green mountain purchased new,breech plug fitted at the log cabin shop in Lodi where I made the rifle.Muzzle is crowned. Patch material does not burn when using mr. flintlock lube.Accuracy was not a factor in this, 4 shots at 25 yds. all touch.  At 50 yds. 1" group with mr. flintlock lube. Could the problem from my mix of ballistol being old ? Could it have separated after sitting all winter? I did shake it well before I soaked the material.

Offline J Henry

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2014, 04:38:45 PM »
  If my rifle pattered that good ,I wouldn't worry about the patch!!!!!!!!!I'd change to the Mr.Flintlock, but it could be the old lube,Might take  a little to a safe place and light it and see it it burns up fast or not.  Might be it is old.

Offline hanshi

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2014, 05:07:43 PM »
If all else fails you might consider an op wad.  I've used them on a couple of "problem" barrels and they stopped the patch burning.  Still, torn or burned patches don't necessarily affect accuracy all that much.
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Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2014, 06:34:52 PM »
Hanshi's suggestion of an overpowder wad or alternatively, about 30 gr by volume of cornmeal, between powder and patched ball would be worth trying.   Check the condition of the recovered patches.   They shouldn't look scorched at all.   If they're cut or torn that would suggest there's sharp metal somewhere compromising the integrity of the patch material as it is pushed down or shot out of the barrel.

I recall reading somewhere that if the patch holds together like it should, hot gasses can't get past, the hot gas produced by the powder burning can't move any faster than the ball, i.e. somewhere around 1700 fps for a typical load.   But if the patch fails, the hot gas can get past the ball at a much higher velocity, maybe 10000 fps, in a narrow jet, and a narrow stream of high velocity hot gas can be rough on the barrel, regardless of the effect on accuracy.  An overpowder wad or cornmeal largely eliminates that possibility, but at the cost of the inconvenience of an extra component in your load.
   
BTW, I have a .40 that ate patches like they were popcorn. After trying different thicknesses of ticking, different lubes (7:1 water to olive oil was my usual recipe for my other guns) I found a spit patch would survive.   Barring  the patches getting cut on sharp metal, I expect you just need to keep experimenting to find what the gun likes.   Good luck, SCL

Vomitus

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2014, 12:27:54 AM »
  If "mr. flintlock" works like it's predecessor, go with it that. You could even soak your old patch that is now dry lubed. I always soak my patches to the point of being quite slobbery(is that a word?) and I get little to no fouling using a tight patch. My fifty likes a .495 ball and a .022 denim patch.(saturated)

Offline oldways

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2014, 12:40:47 AM »
Again thanks to all of your input. I built the rifle mainly for deer hunting, will Mr. flintlocks lube work as a good lube if material is pre-soaked and let dry or only when used as a wet patch lubricate?

jamesthomas

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2014, 03:04:43 AM »
 Mr. Flintlock lube will not dry out. Just use it like it is. If you want a hunting lube order some Trappers Mink oil from Track of the Wolf.

Offline Daryl

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2014, 05:28:01 AM »
Yes - Track's Mink Oil or Neetsfoot Oil for hunting.  The other non-basic oil lubes are for target shooting along with the water based lubes.

Dry patches will leave copious amounts of fouling that must be wiped out before loading again.

When LB noted he gets no fouling, what he is actually saying, is that the fouling if not dry or crusty, or buidling up- that he NEVER has to clean the barrel while shooting for the day's event - only after all the shooting is over.

The crown is of much importance - as noted by others.

A sharp crown is easily remedied as follows, using 320grit wet/dry paper.



Daryl

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Vomitus

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 09:05:18 PM »
   Since Lehigh Vlly isn't around anymore, I make my own moosemilk lube. I've been mixing a few ounces of Neetsfoot oil to *WWW fluid with good results and I use straight neetsfoot oil for my hunting lube. With my larger rifle, I'm getting the same POI with straight N/O as I do with the "mix." Got lucky ,I guess!  ;D

 *winter windshield washer
 

Offline oldways

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2014, 11:05:06 PM »
Daryl haven,t had a chance to check the crown yet.  What type of patches or material are you using that your getting the accuracy you want for hunting?

AuldGoat

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2014, 01:01:10 AM »
Had the same problem of burning patches  or patches with the center blown out. Someone suggested I try using a wonder wad as an OP wad. No more burnouts, no more torn patches. Accuracy went from 4-6 inches to <2".

Will

Offline smallpatch

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2014, 08:07:42 AM »
A wonder wad just covers up a symptom of another problem. Like I said before, it's a got to be a load issue. Loose patch, ball, and poor lube. If you make that problem go away, the symptom will go away.
Right patch, ball, and lube, and you don't need a bore button, and you'll shoot all day without an issue.
Good luck.
In His grip,

Dane

Bible Totin Gun Slinger

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 03:51:23 PM »
Hi I'm back,watching grand kids makes it hard to give prompt replies thank all of you for your help. My material is 100% pillow ticking washed and tumbled dried. patches are totally burned up so no pictures to post. The barrel is a 50 cal. green mountain purchased new,breech plug fitted at the log cabin shop in Lodi where I made the rifle.Muzzle is crowned. Patch material does not burn when using mr. flintlock lube.Accuracy was not a factor in this, 4 shots at 25 yds. all touch.  At 50 yds. 1" group with mr. flintlock lube. Could the problem from my mix of ballistol being old ? Could it have separated after sitting all winter? I did shake it well before I soaked the material.

Amen on the Grand kids thing, they run my but t off.  You know, I too been doing this for years too. Never had patches burn up, completely.   But, I have been playing around with this Hoppe's 9 Plus as most of yall recommended it. The patches come out in such a way I think I could re-use em.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2014, 06:20:29 PM »
Hmmmm. Thinkin the patches are disappearing vs "burning". I tried some (mattress?) ticking .015 to .018 different colors and from did stores. Couldn't find a shot patch even w a person spotting.  

I believe the material was a very loose weave and was blowing apart. It frayed badly wham cut patch at the muzzle. Now Using heavy denim and it is ok. 20 years ago I was using pillow ticking w a real high thread count.  Seems it was called down proof as old fashioned pillows were actually filled with down and had to be tight woven to keep a quill from poking u.

Just my view
TC
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:22:29 PM by Standing Bear »
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Offline Leatherbark

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 04:25:11 AM »
I have had that problem with a few Green Mountain Barrels and no problem on others .  Even shredding patches they were pretty darn accurate.  I do believe the sharp rifling on some of these are cut sometimes with new cutters making the lands extremely sharp, thus black burned and shredded patches because the patch is getting sliced while loading.  Usually a steel wool embedded brush or a piece of scotch-brite pad on a jag and some JB borepaste cures the problem.  Oh and shooting a lot also.

Bob

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: patch material burning up
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2014, 04:42:00 AM »
to check for patch cutting pull a ball
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/