Trigger doesn't release cock

[RonC]

The cock on my main shooting flintlock would lock at half-cock but wouldn't hold at full cock.
I removed the lock, cleaned it up and re-installed. It now locks at full cock.
When I put the lock back into its recess and try it out, all is fine.
When I put the screw in from the other side to hold the lock in place and set the trigger and pulled the trigger, the cock did not release.
I removed the long screw holding the lock and the cock still did not release upon pulling the trigger.
I removed the lock from the rifle and could get the cock to release just fine.

I repeated putting in the lock and long screw to hold it and had the same problem each time, the cock doesn't release. Remove the lock from the rifle, no problem.

The lock has the name Pete Allan on the inside. I looked the name up on the net and my lock looks like the "Becky" locks by Davis.
Thanks from this newbie for any tips on resolving this problem.

Ron

[hanshi]

It sounds like the lock internals are pressing against swollen or excess wood when the lock bolt is tightened.  Usually a simple scraping of wood in the lock inlet does wonders.  Put soot or lipstick on the lock internals, reinstall the lock and then remove it.  If anything is jamming up you'll see color transfered to the wood.  you can carefully remove a little wood until no more color is found in the lock mortise.

[RonC]

Thank you, Hanshi!

Should I use my red or pink lipstick?
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Ron

[RonC]

I should mention a few things.
1. This flintlock was working just fine about 2 weeks ago.
2. The lock works perfectly when off the rifle.
3. I had checked the locking screw to see if it protrudes, blocking the cock from falling. Negatory. As I mentioned, it worked before.
4. I tried the lipstick, but it doesn't match my complexion . It was difficult to see where wood might be rubbing metal.
5. When the long locking screw was tightened down, the whole lock shifts.
6. I put the lock and locking screw in place, pulled the set trigger and then the trigger. The cock moved forward a bit, stopped, and the entire lock moved slightly as though something on the lock was pushing on the wood. The bottom of the lock (toward the trigger) wanted to move away from the rifle.
7. Then, just to add to the fun, I wanted to try pulling the trigger to release the cock again, but the cock would lock at the half-cock position but not the full cock position.
8. At that point I said "Gosh darn, gee whiz, holy whilickers!"
Here is the lock. The shiny stuff is corrosion protect I put on.


Ron

[moleeyes36]

Ron,

I think Hanshi is correct about the lock internals, or possibly the set trigger mechanism, pressing against wood.  This is a common problem, especially in wet or humid conditions.  Sometimes in older rifles that have had the lock removed and re-installed many times, the repeated tightening of the lock bolts compresses the wood some and causes the lock to sit a little deeper in the mortise.  This can cause the problem as well.

[George Sutton]

Hi Ron, I agree with Hanshi also. Look at the lock mortise. If there are any shiny spots on the wood, this is an indication that the lock is rubbing on the wood.

Centershot

[bob in the woods]

If the lock works when out of the gun, then there is interference ...but I am also curious re the lock shifting in the mortice.
If the mortice has room for the plate to move, then the trigger might not be working effectively re the sear contact. You mention only having one lock bolt, which should be enough if you have a good fit .

[RonC]

I looked for evidence of interference like shiny wood or light wood surrounded by darker, carbon stained wood. Nothing was obvious.
I put it all back together. It is all working if I follow this sequence: pull the set trigger; move the cock to half cock and full cock; pull the trigger.

I now have done this multiple times. Each time I have to pull the set trigger first to be able to go to half- and full-cock.

My other flintlocks work by moving to half- then full cock. Pull the set trigger then the trigger.

I wonder if I should pull the set trigger before installing the lock?
Ron

[smylee grouch]

It almost sounds like your triggers need adjustment. The rear trigger might be too high to let the sear engage the notches in the tumbler. Just something to check out.

[SCLoyalist]

I wonder if I should pull the set trigger before installing the lock?

I set the set trigger before reinstalling a lock because on  at least one of my guns I can sometimes end up with the lock's sear bar under the trigger's striker if I don't.   Won't do any harm to set before reinstalling the lock, but I don't see how that would result in the problems you're having as described in the original post, nor should it alter the gun's characteristics with respect to cocking sequence from what it was two weeks ago.

Have you checked the lock bolt threads and the threads of the bolt hole in the lock plate and verified the threads haven't become overly worn or stripped out?   Any recent work on the trigger assembly, like removal for cleaning and replacement of the trigger in the stock?    

Good luck with a definitive solution.  

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Sounds like something has swollen or shrunken. Either way for someone who has no knowledge of how this stuff works internally it can be very frustrating, and very difficult to diagnose long distant.

My advice is to find a knowledgeable friend or a gunsmith that works on longrifles for some assistance. I don't think you'll hurt anything but your sanity may suffer.

If I was to guess, I think it may be a combination of the set triggers being a little deep and pressing on the sear bar too hard. And with the hammer not falling all the way could be something rubbing inside.

When you put carbon or Lipstick on the lock parts, put it on anything that moves. Then reinstall the lock and screw it in snug NOT Tight. Tight will cause problems by itself. Then move the hammer and the triggers. Disassemble the whole thing and examine it Very carefully, with magnification if needed. There has to be a sign where something is rubbing.

OR like I said perhaps you just tightened it too much, you said it was working before. Remember only snug. Even a half turn too tight is too much.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

One other thing to watch for. When you replace the lock, Cock your set trigger. It is possible to get the sear bar under the rear trigger bar and that will mess thing up as well.

Good luck with your lock, hope some of this helps.

[WKevinD]

Is the lock bolt protruding through the lock plate into the hammer path?

[Pete G.]

Sounds like your trigger is bearing against the sear when at rest. Your sear notch on the tumbler can become polished with use and eventually it is smooth enough that the resistance is overcome by the pressure from the trigger. The quick solution is to shim the trigger plate until you get clearance. A more permanent solution (assuming the trigger plate is not inlet too deeply to begin with) is to file just a little off of the end of the trigger spring until the trigger no longer touches the sear when both are at rest.

[Dphariss]

First its likely wood bound from moisture given the pitting on parts of the lock.
Next the lock is still gunked up if the photo is of the "clean" lock. Its needs to he washed out with Brake Cleaner or gasoline and then relubed. Remove the bridle and sear to do this.
Wood moves with the weather. It will move if water is trapped in the lock mortise. Lots of makers do not put finish in the lock mortise and barrel channel.
So you either need to used a light coat of inletting black on the lock internals, reinstall cock a few times and check that at MOVING parts are not contacting the wood.
Do the same with the triggers.
This should fix it.
If not you need a gunsmith who understands 18th-19th c firearms. Which I recommend for SAFETY REASONS.

Dan

[RonC]

If there is something positive from this process, it is the valuable information and experience I have gained for all your suggestions. The mechanical workings of the flintlock, once a magical black box for me, is becoming clearer and clearer.

The lock bolt does not go all the way through to interfere with the cock.

I pulled the set trigger before installing the lock as per Micah's kind suggestion. Wallah! Voila! Viola! (I am not good at French ) The cock holds at both half- and full- cock! But, the set trigger no longer works. The main trigger does work.

My next step: take the advice to talk to more experienced, local muzzleloaders.

Thank you,
Ron

[P.W.Berkuta]

I think you have a problem that has many possibilities;
first to me - it sounds like the lock bolts are not perpendicular to the lock plate and the lock plate mortise edge is not supporting the lock plate. As you screw in the lock bolts the lock plate is shifting which in turn is moving the sear in relation to the trigger blades. Every time you take the lock out to examine it and then re-install it you may be applying different torque to the lock bolts which are then shifting the lock plate and changing the sear/trigger blade position. You may also have a worn or missing fly as you say it "hangs up" in the half cock notch. Good idea to take it to some knowledgeable muzzle loading gunsmith. Hope it works out for you.

[hanshi]

The problem I experienced was similar to yours but the trigger was the culprit in my rifle.  The rifle always worked then one day it didn't.  I removed the trigger, did some very light wood removal and that fixed it.  As was stated previously, removing the lock, inconsistent lock bolt tightening and changing humidity can play the devil with locks and triggers.

Oh, as for color of lipstick I far prefer black; it goes well with my little black dress.

[David Price]

Ron
Sounds like the set trigger is inlet too deep.  Remove the triggers and try the lock.  If it stays on the half cock notch and the firing notch, press the trigger sear with a screw driver and release the cock.  If this works, put a little shim under the trigger plate and replace the triggers.  If that works instsall a perminent shim and your problem is solved.  If I had the rifle here I know that I could get it working in ten minutes.

David

[RonC]

Well, the location of the trigger blade is what seems to be the problem.
I can see the trigger blade is up too high in the location where the sear inserts. I put a piece of cardboard under the front of the set trigger (there is a little notch there) so that the blade would not go up as far as it had and all was fine.

Here is a novice question so that I won't break anything: I removed the trigger guard by punching out the pins, no problem. There is a plate that is inlet into the stock that is held on one side by a screw and on the other by the long bolt that goes from the barrel tang, all the way through to the plate. No problem there.
But, the inlet plate that the triggers go through doesn't seem to want to come out.
Rather than force it, I want to check if there is something else holding the plate to the stock. Do I have to remove the barrel to get down to any other screws that hold that plate?

Thanks,
Ron

[bob in the woods]

Sometimes the wood is undercut to accept a portion of the plate. I have done this to keep the rear of the plate fixed to the stock, with the overlapping trigger guard keeping the front of the plate firmly in place.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

The plate that you are talking about is the set trigger plate. The barrel tang screw goes through the stock and fastens to it. You mentioned a screw in the back of this plate, that is usually a wood screw and helps tighten the rear of the plate and is common too. Remove both screws then just put a screwdriver blade in the front of the plate and lever it out slowly so that nothing cracks. It should be mounted tightly.

If the trigger is in too deeply you have the option of shimming the front, the back, or both depending on where it is deep. I use brass sheet, but you can use any metal preferably or even firm cardboard. Cardboard may compress over time.

If when you put it together again you find the front trigger rattling, you shimmed it too much. The triggers should touch but not move the sear bar.

Just remember that when you put it all back not to overtighten the screws or your problems will return. Just snug (touching so you can't turn them by hand, finger tight is too loose) I hope you can follow that, and try to do it the same every time. A good guide is align the screw slots with the barrel.

[Pete G.]

Not to add to your misery, but be aware that changing tightness of the tang screw can affect both accuracy and point of impact. All these things are interconnected, which is one of the things that makes longrifles so fascinating to fool with.

[RonC]

Not to add to your misery, but be aware that changing tightness of the tang screw can affect both accuracy and point of impact. All these things are interconnected, which is one of the things that makes longrifles so fascinating to fool with.

"Fascinating." Yes, that is a very good word for it.

I want to thank you all so much for the insight and information. The truth is that there is no misery in it for me. It makes me feel younger in a learning mode as I proceed. I can almost say I am having fun. It reminds me of time as a youth taking apart various items to see how they worked. The household items that were the victims of my inquisitiveness made me a victim a "parental displeasure."  But, I survived and those experiences directed me into the technological fields. So, I am off to tinker on the rifle again.

Ron

[SCLoyalist]

I think I've seen most, if not all, of the symptoms you've described on my guns, just not all in the same gun at the same time.  And, since your gun was working fine about 2 weeks ago, it's likely that there is just one part that's become worn or one thing that has changed.

It brings to mind the old joke, here rephrased,  "Why do the BP shooters have hunched shoulders and sloped foreheads?

Because when you ask them a what's causing a problem, they shrug and say 'I don't know', and when they finally figure it out, they slap their foreheads and say "Oh, $#@*, of course!".