Trigger doesn't release cock

[smylee grouch]

I try to get the rear trigger of a double set/double trigger so that it has a little clearence, not touching the sear when the trigger is set. That trigger has to kick the sear out of engaugement not push it out like a single trigger. Maybe I'm wrong but that is what I try for.

[RonC]

I took advice from here and at another muzzleloader site and worked on the rifle.

I first went around the net looking for the proper terminology for both the lock and trigger systems.
I removed the trigger bar (plate) and put metal spacers between the trigger plate and wood, trying to lower the firing trigger bar so that it didn't put pressure on the sear bar. The spacer was a piece of thin steel that came from the old-style folder that kids used to use for holding assignments - the little metal prongs that go through the 3 hole paper. I tried 1, 2 and 3 layers of those flat, metal pieces. That didn't work.

When I tighten the bolt that holds the lock in the recess, the lock tends to roll toward the bolt that inserts near the top of the lock. I put the metal spacers against the wood in the lock recess to keep the lock from rolling in that direction. That didn't work.

The only procedure that works time after time is pulling the set trigger, cocking the cock, and firing.

I think I need to find a flintlock smith locally who can take care of the problem once and for all.

Thanks,
Ron

[smylee grouch]

Ron, if I read you right, when you tighten the rear lockscrew the lock rolls towards the barrel. If that is the way it moves it might be causing the sear to dip down to the trigger lever when it rolls. Is that a posibility?

[RonC]

That is what I noticed, smylee grouch.
Now, part of the BIG story.
It may be that this is a type of trigger mechanism that REQUIRES pulling the set trigger in order to cock the lock!

From another forum: this may be a Double Set, Single Lever Target Trigger (can be seen on the R.E. Davis site). If this is indeed the case, and the mechanism does look like this Double Set, Single Lever Target Trigger, then I feel pretty silly. At least I can write off the activities as a great learning experience. I will still feel a bit silly, though.

Ron

[bob in the woods]

Why did it work before?

[EC121]

Does a blade raise up when you pull the front trigger?  If so, it is a double set/double blade.  A double set/single blade has no blade on the front.  You have to set the triggers or put a shim/set screw under the mainspring to make enough slack to cock the hammer.  From a safety standpoint it is advisable to do this.  It isn't safe to have the triggers set when moving the tumbler.  Setting the triggers should be the last action before raising the rifle to address the target.

[RonC]

Why did it work before?

When I shot it before, it was my first time shooting a muzzleloader and I hadn't a clue as to how they worked. Now that I think about it, I may have had to set the trigger before cocking. It obviously didn't make an impression on me at the time since I had no idea what to expect aside from what I read on the net. So, it did work before. How did it work: with setting the trigger before cocking or just cocking and hitting the set trigger? I just don't recall. What I do remember is taking the flintlock out to the range a second time, attempting to cock it, and finding that I couldn't. I could cock it after pulling the set trigger but didn't know whether that is how it was supposed to be. That led me to this thread.

Thanks,
Ron

[Vomitus]

  Even if it is a double trigger,single set, something else is smooched in there.  I have one of these trigger set ups. Took a little getting used to, but mine cocks easy enough and holds without the trikker being set. Setting the trikker is the last thing I do before firing. Is yours holding the halfcock notch?

[RonC]

  Even if it is a double trigger,single set, something else is smooched in there.  I have one of these trigger set ups. Took a little getting used to, but mine cocks easy enough and holds without the trikker being set. Setting the trikker is the last thing I do before firing. Is yours holding the halfcock notch?

It only holds the half cock notch when the set trigger has been pulled first.

Ron

[RonC]

OK, I can't seem to let this issue go.
Some say it is unsafe to have to set the trigger before cocking the cock. But, if that is the way this lock and trigger unit are designed, so be it.
Here is the inside of the mortise and trigger bar unset:


And set:

At the set condition, the trigger bar is under a notch at the top of the main trigger.

And, finally, the lock mechanism:

which is not nearly as dirty as it looks in the photo.

So, is this a lock for which you have to set the trigger before cocking?

Thanks,
Ron

[J Henry]

  Go to Pete Allen's web sight and ask him how it should work and then how your's works!!

[Dennis Glazener]

"So, is this a lock for which you have to set the trigger before cocking?" Its not the lock, its the trigger that determines if it must be set before the lock can be cocked.
Dennis

[RonC]

It has finely become clearer for me. I had some responses on another site (some of the people are on this forum as well) that also point out that it has nothing to do with the lock, but all to do with the trigger.

From One Fine Gentleman:
"The trigger that is in the rifle now mandates that the trigger is set (dropping that bar) so that it doesn't contact the sear arm of the lock,, that contact prevents the lock from going to full cock.

It's a target trigger only, it's meant to be used at a target range where a rifle isn't made to be ready to shoot until at the firing line or on the bench with the rifle pointed down range.
It would be un-safe to use that trigger set up for hunting."

And another:
"I agree, the single lever double set trigger is dangerous to use for hunting.

Because the trigger must first be set in order to cock the gun, any sharp impact to the guns stock could release the hammer/cock.

Even saying,
"Well! I'll just put the lock at half cock after I've set the rear trigger." isn't a safe thing to do.

When the rear set trigger is released it has a LOT of energy and it can bust the nose off of the sear or break the half cock notch catch off of the tumbler.

In either case, the hammer/cock will fall and can cause the gun to fire.

The only ways to safely carry the gun in the field is to leave the gun uncocked or, if it must be cocked, to have the nipple uncapped or the pan unprimed with the frizzen open.

That makes keeping an eye on the game while you put a percussion cap on the nipple or prime the pan and lower the frizzen a difficult thing to do.

Of course, the target shooters aren't bothered by this so they don't have the same problems."

So, I am going trigger searching! I want to find a trigger system that I have to do the least modification for.

Thank you,
Ron

[EC121]

That trigger will work if you put a screw under the spring to raise the spring and let the blade down a little.  Then you can pull it to any position and set it before you shoot.  Even a double set/ double blade shouldn't be carried set.  Just because someone says "I do it all the time and have never had a problem." doesn't make it safe.  All it takes is a 4-40 or 6-32 tap and drill plus a set screw long enough to reach the mainspring.  A new trigger might still be too high.  Might as well fix this one. If it doesn't work, you can go to plan B and get a new trigger and adjust it.  Plus you can learn how things work and get a new skill.  If you are around these rifles very long, cutting threads is a necessary skill.

[bob in the woods]

If I read this correctly, the purpose of the exercise is to be able to put the lock on 1/2 cock, without having to first set the trigger.  A double action set trigger will allow this.  My target rifle and .40 cal small game rifle have set triggers , but I prefer a good single trigger on my big game hunting rifles.

[necchi]

So, I am going trigger searching!

What you could do to help us is pull the trigger from the stock and give us a picture of the whole thing.

If we can identify the trigger, there may be a front trigger available with a blade that'll fit.
What part of the country do you live in? Maybe there's a shop or builder near you that can help?

[RonC]

So, I am going trigger searching!

What you could do to help us is pull the trigger from the stock and give us a picture of the whole thing.

If we can identify the trigger, there may be a front trigger available with a blade that'll fit.
What part of the country do you live in? Maybe there's a shop or builder near you that can help?

Good idea!
I have taken that rifle apart so many times now, I was reluctant to do it again. But, now that I have replaced the pins that hold the trigger guard with thicker pins, it no longer is a worry that the pins will become loose from repeated extraction and insertion.
Ron

[Hungry Horse]

 The simplest method of determining if your triggers are capable of firing off the front trigger, is to look at them, and observe if the front trigger has a blade that lifts the sear or not.
 Single phase double set triggers were very common back in the day. They were not just used in target guns. Many hunting rifles had them also. Many old guns had no half cock position on the tumbler as well. Of course a lot of old timers accidentally shot themselves too.

                   Hungry Horse

[EC121]

The round front trigger gives the trigger away as a simple single blade trigger.  They were being sold when I started in 1977.  It fits right in with the Pete Allan lock .  It has a simple flat plate and wide bladed rear trigger.  It is doubtful that a front bladed trigger could be added without also modifying the rear one.  More work than it is worth.  20min. work will fix the original.

[Hadden West]

When the hammer is pulled to full cock, the sear bar must move down slightly, before it drops into the full cock notch on the tumbler. It moves over the highest point on the tumbler, then drops into the notch. What happens, is the wood continues to compress over time, and the entire trigger group moves up closer to the sear bar, until a point where it no longer works. On a modern rifle, the trigger group is mechanically tied to the action so nothing changes, but on muzzle loader the wood does compress. The first thing to do is place a small shim between to trigger plate and the wood, if this is the problem, you will know. Then you can either leave the shim, or glass the area for a  better solution.

[RonC]

After all the thoughts and energy put forward by you fine folks, I have come to the conclusion that this is a target system in which the set trigger must be pulled to set the cock to half or full cock. I could purchase a different trigger system, but decided to leave it as is.

The whole exercise has been quite an education for me. Thank you all!
Ron

[Hadden West]

I have a rifle with the same trigger. I like it. It took some time and research to figure out what it was all about. I guess I was under the impression that you had been shooting the gun, and then after cleaning it, something changed. But glad you figured it out.

[RonC]

I think that idea that things had changed came about because of my own confusion. I "mis-remembered" the actual circumstances and confused this particular rifle with others I had handled during the same period. Then again, it could be age doing its thing.
Ron