HC, info for the record.

[jerrywh]

 In the book   [Steinshloss Jagerbuchsen]  is an article explicitly describing the construction of the touch hole lines made in the year---get this-- 1730.
 If the Germans and other European gunmakers were making touchhole liners in 1730 and the American longrifles originated from the German immigrant gunmakers why is it that American longrifles never had touchhole liners???  HUH?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have an image of an original Lehigh Valley rifle that appears to me to be completely original, and it has a touch hole liner made of steel/iron.

[Chris Treichel]

Its probably an issue of people being cheap.  In Europe when your talking about a Prince or Duke with expense being no option doing something like adding a liner is no big deal.  As has been frequently pointed out Americans have a history of being cheap on things like that. Same reason the English lock smiths had a hard time exporting quality locks to America.
 

[Joe S]

If touch hole liners were common on American guns, we would see a lot of them. 

That said, Grinslade’s book on fowlers shows a Hudson Valley Fowler that clearly has a touch hole liner.  It would be very interesting to know if it was coned.

[tallbear]

I not sure we can really get a handle on how many original on how many original American long rifles had touch hole liners as huge numbers of them were converted to percussion which  would remove evidence of liners. When they were converted back to flint in modern times great care was taken to obscure the evidence of the drum which would also obscure any evidence of an original touch hole liner.

Mitch Yates

[Bob Roller]

 It's doubtful if any American long rifles of the days when
 they were all that was had touch hole liners.We have a number
 of fine original American long rifles here in the Huntington Museum
of Art and none have liners.The lines touch hole seems to be a British
specialty and no doubt other European makers picked up on the idea.

 Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

 Taylor,I think it was there to save a barrel that may have been
 messed up.Possibly a slag hole that appeared in a critical area
when the touch hole was drilled to begin with.

 Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

 Chris,
You got that right about the American propensity for cheap gun parts and guns.
 The Germans offered me more to build locks for their flintlock pistols than most
of our people would pay for a gun.Last Fall one of them wanted me to make some more
flintlocks for him and I said no even though he said he'd pay $300 each for them.
I'm wearing out,getting tired and want no commitments to any individual anywhere.

Bob Roller

[bama]

Bob do the building faternity a favor and a get you an aprentice or 2 and give them your knowledge. Your locks and triggers are exceptional, that is why the Germans are willing to pay $300 for them. I have had the pleasure of using both and I hope to do so again some day. Your knowledge will surely be missed.

[Jim Kibler]

It's very likely that most if not all the American examples cited are simply bushings for burn out holes.

[David Rase]

Bob do the building faternity a favor and a get you an aprentice or 2 and give them your knowledge. Your locks and triggers are exceptional, that is why the Germans are willing to pay $300 for them. I have had the pleasure of using both and I hope to do so again some day. Your knowledge will surely be missed.

I volunteer to be the first in line!
David

[Joe S]

Jim

It's very likely that most if not all the American examples cited are simply bushings for burn out holes.

My impression of the liner in Grinslade’s book that I mentioned is that it is probably too small to be coned – so most likely a bushing to replace a burned out hole like you said.  Sure would be interesting to take a look though.

[Kermit]

Bob and Dave, that sounds like the proverbial "marriage made in Heaven."

Dave, then you'll need to pass it along too.

[Acer Saccharum]

Bob, word of warning, don't let Dave near the forge if he's got the Hula skirt on.

[David Rase]

Bob, word of warning, don't let Dave near the forge if he's got the Hula skirt on.

Tom,
After exhaustive research, and several near misses, I discovered that ancient Hawaiian blacksmiths during the height of the iron age discovered a fire retardant grass several centuries ago.  Though long extinct, I am working with local horticulturists here in the state of Washington, where it is legal, thanks to the voters, to grow many different types of grasses.  It is my hope to reproduce this fire retardant grass which will eventually lead to the return of the grass skirted blacksmith.  Now if I can only get Pratt to do a product evaluation and ultimately an endorsement.
 

[Bob Roller]

To really be in style,a Viking helmet with horns and tennis shoes must be added to that grass skirt.

Bob Roller

[James Rogers]

To really be in style,a Viking helmet with horns and tennis shoes must be added to that grass skirt.

Bob Roller

Tom, Dave needs to borrow some things from your wardrobe for compliance!

[jerrywh]

 We have gone from touch holes to laurel and Hardey at the forge. Back to the subject at hand.
The gold liners you read about and see in photos of English guns do not thread in like the liners we now have. Gold is so soft that the threads would never hold. I have learned this by doing it. Actually gold does not hold up well at all for a touch hole. However the ones you see are either an round overlay on the surface of the touch hole or a small gold rivet that is riveted inside of an oversized touch hole in the barrel and then reamed out to size or drilled. I have never really had a chance to examine an original but having installed a few I don’t see any other way it could be done safely. 24K gold is softer than lead. Gold copper allows can be extremely hard but brittle but they do not look like gold.
I have made them from brass and stainless and done the gold type. I wouldn't want a shooting gun with a gold liner. As for dueling guns , how often are you going to duel?

[Dphariss]

I not sure we can really get a handle on how many original on how many original American long rifles had touch hole liners as huge numbers of them were converted to percussion which  would remove evidence of liners. When they were converted back to flint in modern times great care was taken to obscure the evidence of the drum which would also obscure any evidence of an original touch hole liner.

Mitch Yates

This is something many fail to take into consideration when looking at "original" rifles. We have a very small sample based on the number that had to be made. We have a percentage of rifles melted for scrap in WW-I and II scrap drives and these were the ones that survived that long. I had a WW-I vet tell me that when he returned from the war he only had the stock of one of his "good guns", Kentuckys, left. So we have a LOT of missing evidence.
I often wonder how many men died when their plain vented barrel flashed....
Until someone bore scopes or debreeches a bunch of original guns, really original, if they can find that many, to see what the interior of the breech end is like we are guessing.

Dan

[Dphariss]

The Gold and later malleable Platinum vents were made as Jerry states from my reading. Iron/steel lined with pretty and erosion resistant metal peaned in.
HOWEVER. The lined vents pretty well require a cross drilled breech or a tool to get into the breech to do the upset. Since making one off the gun then lining it would be "difficult".
We do find drawings like this.

But they are drawings....

Dan

[DaveP (UK)]

  Actually gold does not hold up well at all for a touch hole.

 As for dueling guns , how often are you going to duel?

I had been intending to ask how well a gold vent liner would perform - it might be all but inert, chemically, but it is soft and has a low melting point, FWIW - I'm not sure if that is even relevant, so thanks for your comment.
As for the OP, I suspect the answer lies in the extreme contrast between the wealth of the upper classes and that of ordinary working people, When you have folk in England, and probably most of Europe who could treat themselves to a gun costing more than most of his tenants would see in a lifetime of hard graft its not surprising to see the latest technology and loads of bling in their gunrooms. In the more down to earth colonies or ex colonies I wouldn't expect to see gold trim and details like vent liners - more likely to be a repair than original equipment?

Regarding duelling pistols, my understanding is that a man who owned a set would be likely to practice intensively with them in the hope that his own guns would feel like an extension of his body and some of this skill would carry over in the event that he had to fight with someone else's. They could see quite a lot of use, but of course they would be well maintained.

[Dphariss]

Here are some other drawings.






These are from the late 19th c near as I can tell.

So they are not "period"


Dan  

[Chris Treichel]

I just decided to look through several of the closed out auctions in Hermann-Historica as they show lots of really high end German and French flintlock guns.  In three collections of around 70 or so guns I only found two one English ~ 1810 fowler and the other a German rifle which upon closer inspection looked to have gold inlaid in a circle around the touch hole. None of the ones where I could see the touchhole had vents visibly installed and over half of them were highly ornate guns and several target rifles. 

[JTR]

Just my opinion, but for the life of me I have no idea why anyone would compare a Euro made firearm to a similar period American firearm.

First of all, the construction methods couldn’t have been further apart. The Euro guns were made by various Guild members where one guy made a screw, another guy made parts for a lock, another guy put it together, another guy cast the brass parts, another guy made the barrel, another guy inlet the stock, another guy did the carving, another guy did the engraving, another guy did the finishing on the wood and another guy did the finishing on the metal, etc. And all these guys were making a gun for the local King or Prince or Land Baron as a toy to entertain him….
 
So why don’t American made guns have touch hole liners? You might as well ask why they don’t have gold encrusted locks and barrels as well.
Let’s guess and say the local Euro tyrant made say a hundred thousand coins of the realm annually, so a thousand coin gun was a drop in the bucket to him! And if for some reason he didn’t have the coins, he could just raise the rent on his peasants.

Then you have the American longrifle gunsmith (that’s what they called themselves back then, as opposed to now) working in a one man shop…. Or maybe he had an apprentice, or if he was really lucky, had two. Maybe he made the barrel or maybe he bought it. Same with the lock depending on time period and the gunsmiths locality. Maybe the apprentice did the initial inletting, but the gunsmith did the rest. Did the carving, did the inlays, did the engraving, basically building all, or the vast majority of the gun in his shop. And yes, true, probably without a touch hole liner….

But of course, the American gunsmith didn’t have a King or Prince or Land Baron as a client to sell his gun to. He had for the most part what in a Euro context might be considered a Free Peasant. Probably most these free peasant American farmers made 50 or a 100 bucks a year from his corn or whatever crop, so the gunsmith was stuck selling his gun for 8 or 10 bucks.

So the American farmers might have spent about 10 percent of annual income on a longrifle, vs 1/10 a percent of the Kings income for his gold crusted play thing.
 
But somehow the American guy was cheap because he didn’t see the need for a touch hole liner?

Let’s see, in a modern comparison, say you drive a Chevy pickup, and well, I drive a wonderful Euro made Ferrari,,,, but somehow you’re cheap because you drive a Chevy?

Maybe instead of criticizing the poor old American Long rifle for not being more like the Kings or Prince’s or Land Barons guns, perhaps we should celebrate the longrifle for being as good as it was…..

John

[jerrywh]

JTR.
 

"Just my opinion, but for the life of me I have no idea why anyone would compare a Euro made firearm to a similar period American firearm."

 
"So why don’t American made guns have touch hole liners? You might as well ask why they don’t have gold encrusted locks and barrels as well.
Let’s guess and say the local Euro tyrant made say a hundred thousand coins of the realm annually, so a thousand coin gun was a drop in the bucket to him! And if for some reason he didn’t have the coins, he could just raise the rent on his peasants. "

    #1 ---First off no body was comparing them. There is no comparison.
    #2---  After the revolution there were hundreds of gun makers in America in intense competition with each other . That is what caused the golden age of the long rifle.  With all this competition and the fact that the long rifle evolved from the German gun makers one would think some of them had touch hole liners for faster ignition.  Installing a touch hole liner is not a insurmountable task nor is it a very expensive operation. Don't get hung up on the gold idea. Just a plain old iron one that is coned would be fine.