Making a Frizzen Spring

[rhmc24]

Making a Frizzen Spring

The short description is I make the portion with the screw hole & finial separately & weld the spring portion on to it. 

If it's for a pair I make a copy of the screw portion of the other one.  Otherwise make it appropriate for the lock.  It can be common steel from my raw stock. On the spring side, opposite the finial, I make a stub to weld the spring on to, about quarter inch projection.

The spring portion I try to make from my supply of 1095 1/16x3/8" spring steel if appropriate for the size.  Otherwise I have sacrificed one of my old carbon steel kitchen knives by annealing, sawing out a piece of proper thickness, etc.  The now-prepared spring stock, more or less flat & straight is welded to the stub on the screw portion.

For the anti-rotation pin on the spring I tack a blob of weld in the desired place, sometime another on top of it, then file it to the shape of the pin. That with my MIG welder.  Otherwise, I would have made the piece to be welded on wider to file enuf of it away later & leave the desired pin.

Once the weld is cleaned up and the still straight it is fitted to the lockplate, then heat, bend & shape the upper portion to interface with the frizzen.  Satisfied with shape & fit, temper the spring.

I heat it red and quench it in motor oil.  Then I put in a near flat vessel with half teaspoon of the oil, ignite the oil & when it burns away, cool & cleaned you have a frizzen spring.

To temper the spring I have a little flat bottom cast brass ash tray for small springs.  Larger springs I cut off 1/2" of a food can and beat the bottom flat so the oil won't run away into the edges, but stay beneath the spring.  I put the vessel with spring, bridged across the open jaws of my vise & heat below till the oil is hot & producing vapors that burn.  I avoid direct flame from my torch on the spring.  A sardine can has been suggested as a good tempering vessel but I haven't tried it yet.

It is a good idea to experiment & gain experience with making springs, especially the annealing, heated bending & tempering. This is how I have done it, not the only or best way but it works.

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
I download these wonderful tidbits and store them in my gunsmithing folder along with an old treasure trove of tips from Kit Ravenshear.
Thanks for sharing.
dave

[P.W.Berkuta]

Thanks for the info and it will do well for the person that has that kind of equipment. I still perfer making my springs out of one piece of spring steel (I like 1084). Each to their own method  .

[jerrywh]

 In my opinion Kit Ravenshear wrote the worst description of spring making I ever read. Welding springs is for those who don't know how to make them correctly.
 The reason it bothers me so bad is I because I got so much misinformation when I started out. This stuff messes up dozens of new guys for a long time. This is only one step down from making a barrel out of electrical conduit.
 That is about a tactfull as I ever get.

[Acer Saccharum]

Kit rolls over in his grave! God rest his soul.

I would never trust a welded spring, not one I had to rely upon.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

It is a little known fact that Jacob Dickert had a MIG welder setup in the back room of his shop.  Remember the great buckskinner refrain - "If they'd had it, they'd of used it!".   

[sqrldog]

rhmc24 thanks for having the courage to post on this forum. Please go back and read the last sentence of his post. I for one enjoy reading the methods used by others to complete a particular job on repairing or building a longrifle or part. While I don't use all of them I appreciate the effort to share them. I feel sure the old gunsmithss did not have a tig welder but they probabl didn't have cnc lathes computer controlled milling machines or wax cast parts that most of us use to build our otherwise HC correct products. Now I know some of you work in a log building by natural light and make every part by hand. My hats off to you for doing so. Just be mindful that we all use different methods to try and achieve the same  outcome.
Tim

[Bob Roller]

 Methods are what they are.We all have our own ways and only results count,positive results.
 I have a very different way of making a frizzen spring whenever I had to but it involves the
 use of a drill press and a milling machine.
 Investment casting or sand castings are the only way to go when reproducing oddly shaped
 parts with complex curves like the English style flintlocks have.A lot of people are under the
 impression that these fancy lock plates were whittled out of a chunk of steel(iron) with files.
 Lynton McKenzie told me that the whittleing was done on wood to make patterns and then
these patterns were taken to an iron foundry where mould makers using fine sand made moulds
 and then the parts were cast.What ever filing was done was to clean up the cast parts.
 When I first got interested in making parts for muzzle loaders the only things available were
 sand castings,mostly hammers and frizzens made from malleable iron and the prime supplier
 was a man in Ohio.I was on my own for springs.
 It has been a real learning experience combined with my interest in big classic cars,aircraft
 and boats. Memories of days and friends gone by and passed away come back as I fumble along
 with this key board so I will stop now.

Bob Roller

[Fullstock longrifle]

Rhmc24 I enjoy reading your posts, keep them coming. It's always a pleasure to read someone else's approach to solving a problem. Whether you agree or disagree with the concept, there's always some tidbit that can be taken from it.
Frank

[Hungry Horse]

 For years I repaired cheap muzzleloaders for kids, so they could make all the mistakes on a gun that wasn't valuable. Many of these were  CVA's, and their later Spanish copies. I discovered that although many of their parts were prone to failure, their frizzen springs were surprisingly durable. They rarely break without the owners heavy hand, and a pair of vise-grips, being involved.  These springs are simply cut out of flat spring stock, and twisted to produce a screw eye. I always though this was not a period method, but a couple of years ago I bought a box of old locks, and parts, and found two old plates in the bottom of the box with old springs made exactly this way. I make my frizzen springs now using this method, but instead of using stock that is all the same thickness, I use stock that has been upset at the mounting screw end in the forge. This gives me enough metal, to shape the screw area, and file the obvious twisted area out.

                           Hungry Horse

[jerrywh]

In my opinion the purpose of a forum is too instruct those who want to know how to make long rifles or muzzle loaders the correct methods. When I see posts that I know are totally wrong it upsets me because those who want to know how are extremely misled. It is a case of the blind leading the blind.  In my opinion it totally contradicts the purpose of the forum. Why come here at all if you get the same misleading info you have always heard before. When I was young it took me about 10 years to learn how to forge a flintlock. The reason was most if not all the info I got was incorrect in total or in part. There were very few books and if somebody knew it was a secret that they would not share. I hate this to this day. For the love of the art, If you don't know how to do something just please don't confuse others.  Somebody has to say this. I don't care that much  what anybody thinks of me, but I care about the new guys .
 Ps I agree with Bob Roller that new methods are the best and today I use them myself. I make my own patterns and have castings made and also use a milling machine however I have forged several flintlocks and set triggers with a coal forge and when I was young it was the only way you could get one.  Swear ,some day soon I will put out a book on forging springs and heat treating them and there will be no welding together parts. Welding crystallizes the high carbon steel at the junction of the weld. I don't think that can be reversed.
  Kit Raveshare was no doubt a great guy but in this case he was wrong. At some point we all are.

[tallbear]

Well said Jerry.

 Dissenting opinions are welcome here on this forum as long as they're given in a respectful manner which they have. It isn't necessary for everyone to rush to the OP's defense.The purpose of this forum is to educate which is impossible if there is no give and take.If members experiences  are contrary to a post they are welcome to voice their contrary opinion.It is up to the reader to decide whose information they will follow.

Mitch Yates

[Dan Fruth]

Jack Haugh made springs by cutting the shape from solid stock with a hand hack saw, file to shape, heat and bend, then temper...Others forge them, I use a metal cutting band saw, milling machine and files...the point is necessity is the mother of invention, and we all can learn something from others if we have the humility to....By the way, Dave Dodds, rest his soul, would use a Chambers cock from the early germanic lock, cut the neck in 3 places, and have it micro welded back together so he could get the right size and angle for his berks guns, and that is a true statement cause he told me himself, which some might cringe at that, but it is true none the less....
Dan

[JCKelly]

A little on-topic metallurgy

All steel  - all metals - are crystalline. They really are. Normally the crystals are very fine, you can't see them by eye unless you magnify about 100 times.

If indeed you CAN see those crystals, then they are very much too coarse. Coarse crystals (us metallurgists call them grains in English) are bad, they tend to make the metal  brittle.

Forgings commonly have some areas of rather coarse grain, from the forging heat.

Yes, since welding is melting there will be some big grains around a weld.

The good news is that, in steel anyway, you can get these coarse grains to make new, fine grains. Not only CAN you do this, but your really SHOULD do it to anything that has been forged. Makes a difference in something that is going to be beat on a lot, like a chisel or throwing knife. Or a forged spring.

Most commonly it is done in mild (low-carbon) steel by heating the metal to a nice red heat, say 1600 - 1650F, and just air cooling it. I think this works OK for spring steel as well.

For very high carbon steel such as a file, one generally anneals it. In either case one gets fine grained metal again. THEN heat it red and quench in your favorite liquid, and temper however  you temper.

[LRB]

  Thankyou Mr. Kelly. It is great to have you come in on the subject as a ray of bright light in a dark room. There are a few very fine metallurgists on some of the knife forums who freely share their knowledge with we who know little in comparison. What they have found in working with high carbon steels in order to gain the finest grain is to use heat cycles, after  with reducing temps in three, or sometimes, more steps The first heat being 1600° to 1650° and air cool or quench. The second cycle at around 1450°, and the third at 1350°. This third step can be repeated up to three times, after which the point of diminishing return has been reached, the grain is about as fine as it will ever get, and the steel is ready for the hardening process.  A forged part or blade should be annealed prior to the heat cycling. In the case of hypereutectoid steels, those having more than .77%, or roughly .8% carbon, a fourth step can be done to further soften the steel if any more work is needed on the part, such as drilling or filing. The heat cycled steel is heated to 1250°, soaked at temp for a while, then slow cooled to below 900°. This causes the carbon to spheroidize and allows tools to cut much easier. I have found if brought to a very dull, barely red heat a few times and air cooled will usually help enough to get you by.

[Bob Roller]

Jellowaydan,
I also use a metal cutting band saw,vertical mill and files to make springs.
These tools make the day easier for me.

Bob Roller

[rhmc24]

Some respondents seem to be offended by my straying from the traditional, as though I'm something of a heretic.  I assure the nay-sayers who decry my postings, that I'm not recommending anyone abandon traditional methods. My offerings are descriptions of how I have done it & how it can be done if one chooses simplicity.   Methods I post are those I used in mostly pre-percussion gun restoration for decades, for my few clients who were/are major collectors & dealers. I have restored many pieces of historical import, not the least of which was the fowling piece of Richard Varick, an aide to Washington.  I restored barrel length, reconvert to flint, etc. It was then for years on display in Fraunces Tavern in NY. 

I have made several locks from scratch by as near as I can get, traditional methods.  My restoration returns the piece to its 'as used' condition, not to like new as commonly seen in more modern arms.  Shortcuts such as welding in making springs were/are an expedient in favor of producing a functional product with least time & effort. 

Needed a tap of 24 tpi but of odd diameter.  Seeking info from our Engineering Manager at Pan Am whom I knew to be a hands-on type with a home shop, he offered an address. Prices were astronomical so I proceeded to make one.  Showing it to Engrg Mgr, he had questions of how. I turned it of drill rod on my lathe, filed in flutes and gave it some relief, hardened & tempered it.  Flabbergasted he asked how I got correct relief angle, face angle, etc.  I told him I didn't bother with 'correct', I just used common sense.  He said if if worked there's no argument against results, considering its purpose.  ---- Which makes me wonder how people figured out angles back in the day.

Probably not off-point to remind that most of the discoveries & advances in history have been from pure necessity, seeking a better/different way, exceeding accepted limits & some by being alert for collateral discovery. By these methods I solved a few company problems, which came to be adopted in the airline industry.

And for sure, to the point, I am writing as one "been there, done that" mostly to those who have limited equipment & knowledge like when I first wanted to get serious about working on old guns. 

Finally, I'm envious of those knowledgeable about metallurgy & those who have the skills and resources for forging, milling, etc.  Further is my appreciation of info offered concerning this subject & my appreciation of
those who respond in support of my postings.

[rhmc24]

JCKelly  -- Thanks for your posting of the metallurgical info.   It explained something for me.   I have done quite a bit of welding on guns, years ago a lot of restoring barrel length & on Colt autos.  I had good skills in doing my work on extending barrels but in finishing the welds were conspicuous, the three metals involved, parent barrel, added piece & filler weld.  By experimentation I learned to heat the weld area red just before final finish, then final polish & finish.  That procedure greatly reduced the visibility problem. It was especially useful in recent years on 1902 & '05 Colt autos.  Without the treatment the weld would blue differently that the rest.   With the treatment nobody ever noticed, altho I could see it because I knew where it was.

 

[tallbear]

Some respondents seem to be offended by my straying from the traditional

rhmc

I don't believe that straying from traditional is the reason for the opposing views . While many of us (my self included)strive to maintain as many traditional methods in our gun building(and is the main focus of this forum) as possible many do not.They are seeking out the best method possible.Most of us are building guns that will be used on a regular basis and the methods needed are far different than methods used for a gun that will hang on a wall and is for decoration only.When the information is  available to properly forge and temper a spring why use methods that seem to have a less than ideal service life.This is what I believe the members who oppose your methods are getting at.They are trying to give other members the best possible means of accomplishing their task rather than a "make do" method. You are welcome to post your methods but you must be willing to defend them against other members experiences.

Mitch Yates

[JTR]

Keep up the posting rhmc24.

Some of the guys here won't agree with anything you say, but others will pick up helpful tips!

I worked as a ships engineer for many years and found by necessity plenty of ways to make things work, that weren't in the book. Your mention or reheating a welded joint has given me an idea to explore, thanks!

John

[rhmc24]

There's nothing left to say about my intent & purpose.  I understand & have no quarrel with other's methods.  These discussions are typical in the 'story of my life' in that my proposals activate new or 'dormant' interest.  Respondents to my subject are in two camps of those endorsing or finding it useful & those with 'yes-but' responses or their improvements.  It happened time & again during my working life.  Oftentimes the improvements were valid but strangely there was little interest before.

Reminiscent of Sam Colt's successful revolver, when the revolving idea had been around for a century or more.

[jerrywh]

   Now we are down to welding barrels. Do you solder brass cases up also? Welding a spring is incorrect and unreliable. Welding a barrel is insanely dangerous.  It seems to me that this web sight might  could have some legal problems if such things as welding barrels is allowed to be posted. I can't believe this stuff. Where are the sane members on this. Dan Phariss, Race, Bob roller, somebody straighten these guys out. Surely you guys are joking --Right??

[Bob Roller]

I have never tried to weld a spring and it never occurred to me to try.
I have seen a few,very few barrels with breech plugs welded in and to
weld up a cracked barrel I think could be a bad idea because the bore
would possibly,probably be obstructed and then someone would try to
load and shoot the thing and if the ball or bullet was stuck in the barrel
because of the weld,then tragedy would hit.
Jerrywh may well be right about liability problems because there are people who
will believe ANYthing they see in print.I remember local idiots telling me to pry open
shotgun shells to get the powder to shoot in my muzzle loader and I told them they
were crazy.
The old rule of IF IN DOUBT,DON"T should be stressed on any forum or venue pertaining
to guns.I would NEVER tell anyone to load an Elmer Keith 44 Spl load to use in a pocket
revolver like the Charter Arms 44 I carry frequently.Wrong topic here but good example.

Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

  Now we are down to welding barrels. Do you solder brass cases up also? Welding a spring is incorrect and unreliable. Welding a barrel is insanely dangerous.  It seems to me that this web sight might  could have some legal problems if such things as welding barrels is allowed to be posted. I can't believe this stuff. Where are the sane members on this. Dan Phariss, Race, Bob roller, somebody straighten these guys out. Surely you guys are joking --Right??

Jerry, it's pretty common to weld barrels to extend them during aggressive restoration of originals that will never be shot.  Times and preferences and trends change, but at one time such restorations were common.  I think many to most of these tips being offered are intended to be employed in restoration work, on originals that are to give the appearance of functionality but never actually function.

[Acer Saccharum]

How did barrel welding come up in a spring thread?