Author Topic: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?  (Read 14570 times)

PINYONE

  • Guest
LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« on: February 03, 2009, 01:37:55 AM »
 All of you who read this weigh in. As we all know across the Country- Recession has taken hold, Housing prices everything under the sun are dropping to realistic numbers. As I look at a lot of things in Our world Maybe a good bit of these black powder items are over priced as well. Example- you can buy a fine Colt pistol for less than a kit sells for, a nice used truck for what a rifle sells for. I understand that everything is Art now, but even the top Auctions Galleries in the country are realizing much lower prices. The other day in Flint Michigan they auctioned homes off for under $500. I was told recently that someone is going to offer $60,000. for the House Rifle to whomever wins it. I think maybe the things we like might be inflated just as the Housing Market was. I think price was one reason the Williamsburg Shop had to downsize- let me know- The Great Pinyone

Offline Ezra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1579
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 01:47:53 AM »
We all have a finite amount of time on this earth.  How much is a minute, or an hour of your time worth?  And that does not even take into consideration ones skill set.


Ez
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"

Offline J. Talbert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 02:22:58 AM »
A piece of art is worth whatever someone is willing to pay, which is constantly changing.

A worker is worth whatever it costs to replace him.  Coldhearted but true...

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
Thomas Sowell

long carabine

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 02:27:26 AM »
 This is why I cannot afford the ML that i want, a house Virginia rifle. I understand that each rifle is a work of art but some of the prices are ...well you know what I mean. I understand that you pay for the creators talent and years of blood sweat and tears but come on, lets be real....$60,000.00 for something that maybe cost $2,000.00 to build? Seems a little high to me or maybe the prospective buyer is.....You'v brought up a good point. Not everyone is made of money. Tim

Offline Ezra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1579
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 02:43:42 AM »
This is why I cannot afford the ML that i want, a house Virginia rifle. I understand that each rifle is a work of art but some of the prices are ...well you know what I mean. I understand that you pay for the creators talent and years of blood sweat and tears but come on, lets be real....$60,000.00 for something that maybe cost $2,000.00 to build? Seems a little high to me or maybe the prospective buyer is.....You'v brought up a good point. Not everyone is made of money. Tim

I'm not so sure.  How do you quantify the "cost" of the House brothers rifle?
Straight hours?  Through recognition that they are TRUE American artisans?  The fact that the rifle was essentially made from scratch by said artisans and is a one of a kind?   If I win that rifle, I will not sell it.  Unfortunately, whoever wins it WILL probably sell it in contrast, I am certain, of what the House brothers desire.


Ez

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"

George F.

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 03:08:25 AM »
Well, some of the builders do this full time as their means of support, while others do it as a hobby. It's like Erza said about what is your time worth? The amount of time we average creating a rifle is variable from each builder, and the amount of metal and wood decoration. Inlays, patchboxes, wire inlays, carving, engraving. There's no way you can compare a Thompson Center and Pedresoli ( I don't know if I spelled that right)  to a custom rifle. These economic times are going to be tough, Congress ain't pulling as a team, like what else is new.I fear this will last years. I think you are thinking whether or not people will be able to afford them, well property taxes, food, utilities, food, doctors, cars and car repairs aren't going down, and gas is on it's way back up. The going hourly rate for the average gun builder is probably under $5.00. The products we produce  are  a bargin. We are not trashing your view, just offering ours.     My thoughts...Geo.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:31:47 AM by George F. »

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 03:09:44 AM »
So you want to buy a House rifle so cheap that the maker looses money on the deal.
Do you think that HH and brothers will be making rifles if they cannot turn a profit?
And don't start with the reasonable profit thing. In this context they should be able to at LEAST make what a UAW worker for GM makes for their time and the smith has no benefits package.
If you want a HH rifle either sell some stuff to raise the money or buy the parts and make a copy of a HH rifle.
Like a lot of people Hershal and many others paid their dues making rifles for low wages because they loved them. Its about time they were getting compensated somewhat closer to what the skill level SHOULD be worth.
So far as 2000 to build. Depends on what the "shop" rate is. If you charge $50 an hour (reasonable in todays world ) and spend 30-50 hours making the rifle you cannot built it for 2000 bucks.
Its not about what the parts cost. It the skill and talent that goes into making it.
Almost anyone can stick parts together and make the bullet fly out the muzzle with enough powder. But thats not what you are paying for.
What I see in you is someone who wants a $10K gun for 1000 bucks.
The world is not fair....
Some people have more money than others and some are more skilled and artistic than others.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 03:30:48 AM »
During the great depression they did manage to sell Packard motorcars!

So in hard times there are always a few around willing to pay the price demanded for top notch art/work!! :)

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 04:35:18 AM »
There are always people with money.

There are always artists making art.

As an artist, the tough part is to get your art in front of the right person at the right time. You cannot add up the parts and the hours to come up with a 'fair price' when you're talking about art. Like you cannot add up the canvas and the paint to figure out what a van Gogh should really go for. It's what the market will bear.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 04:36:37 AM »
Fisher, are we gonna see your sorry axe at the 18th Cent Artisan show?

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 04:55:51 AM »
I been struggling for a year trying to make my first rifle something I will be proud of.  To get paid $20 an hour I'd probably have to have about $10,000 for it. ;)  I saw some rifles at the CLA show that I thought were steals.  If someone pays $60K for a rifle, it makes it kind of hard to argue that it wasn't worth $60K.

Online P.Bigham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 596
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 05:53:17 AM »
 I believe most of the Longrifles and Accouterments built by today's Artists are under valued. Most build for the labor of love that goes into It. I think they could make much more in about any other Occupation. For as the House Brothers Rifle I think It is worth more than $60,000 estimated.
" not all who wander are lost"

PINYONE

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 05:57:38 AM »
Hey Fellows some real good post from you all. I want to clear up a thought - I didn't say HH shouldn't get his price- I was making a point that with the economy down and layoffs in the Millions prices on many items such as homes and luxury things are dropping at a fast pace. As one man said this is going to last a long time. Where I live in Florida homes have dropped in price as much as 50% or more in many cases. I just thought with all the important things going down in price to real numbers that it may cause a drop in what we like. And if I win that rifle by a long shot- the collector who is offering the money will be my best friend, The great Pinyone!

Offline B Shipman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
    • W.G. Shipman Gunmaker
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 08:35:31 AM »
I don't think that a depression will greatly hurt muzzleloading. In the late 70's, early 80's Things wre pretty bad. My 7% variable rate business loan went to 18% to halt inflaton and the economy was negative.

Yet new ML businesses were actually coming on line to meet demand. Think of all the new barrel makers, all the new retail businesses coming on line in this bad economy period. People out of work build more guns and keep the suppliers extra busy. More guns creates more interest and keeps the custom guys busy.  By the by, the reason that makers today share knowledge is that we know that more is merrier.

Actually what will probably happen to the economy in general is depression followed by recovery followed by hyperinflation caused by all the money spent followed by very high interest rates and an induced and very painfull recession followed by a long period of low rates and growth.

Offline Rich

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 09:42:42 AM »
The price that has to be paid for anything  is governed by supply and demand. I don't see how most people can earn a living making rifles by hand. The only one's I figure can make a living are the ones building high art and collectable guns. If you figure the cost of the shop, medical insurance, taxes, utilities, tools and supplies, etc. Then figure the time it takes to build and the number that can be built and sold. It seems to me that there is just enough demand to justify working for very little to build rifles.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 10:31:38 AM »
I have few thoughts on this and I would like to preface them by saying that I am not building for a living (at least not yet), but I do think I should be paid fairly for my time.

If I were to charge the going rate I used to get as a systems engineer then an average rifle would cost about $12,000.   There are some builders who do charge that.   I haven't and don't think I could get away with it, but when I start finishing some guns again, I will be asking a lot more for them than I used to.   

As a rule, think most builders of longrifles and accouterments have been charging way too little for their wares.   Labor should be the main part of the cost of one of these products and not the direct cost of the materials.   I have been keeping a time and materials sheet on all my projects for the last year or two and use those to set my prices.  I simply vary my hourly rate depending on how good I think I am at the work I am doing.    Since you can't charge for learning, you must lower your rate on your first pieces.   What those rates will be will be determined by market forces.

All that said,  the economy and supply and demand may force us to take less than we would like; but I am not sure we are there yet.   People aren't buying anything now.  Let's see how things shake out in a few months.   

From a personal point of view, when the drug companies and durable medical equipment manufacturers start charging me less, then I might consider dropping the hourly wage that I expect.     I should report that my health insurance cost did drop for 2009.   I am not sure if that is an encouraging sign or not.


Tony Clark

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 04:51:12 PM »
All of you who read this weigh in. As we all know across the Country- Recession has taken hold, Housing prices everything under the sun are dropping to realistic numbers.

Well....my property taxes, utility bills, health insurance and on and on and on, have not dropped to realistic levels. If the House brothers gun goes for that much my opinion is, well good for them! I doubt you would see to many folks lining up and building comparable pieces in an attempt to get a part of that kind of action. And if someone does care to step up to the plate and give it a try and gets that kind of money, well then good for them to. They deserve it in my opinion. Regards, TC

Mike R

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 05:06:28 PM »
There have always been great variations and great disparities in the "art world" and there have always been the "rich" and the not so rich connoiseur --and the critic.  There are great art guns, not so great art guns, plain guns, junk guns, etc...all handmade does not necessarily mean high art, high art does not necessarily mean all handmade [talking about totally handmade lock, stock and barrel].  I can appreciate but not afford the great guns. The rich connoiseur/collector buys the fine guns.  The investor/collector buys the fine guns. Very few not so rich do, but a few may believe in the philosophy of the 'one pearl of great worth' and sell everything else to attain one.  Then there are the other categories of gun lovers/owners: reenactors, target shooters, hunters, middle class collectors, etc.  True, the average joe cannot afford a rifle from some of the better known high dollar makers--and he is not their target clientele.  Maybe some started out to sell to the average joe, but that changed.  I own a Keith Casteel longrifle--his 50th gun  he told me.  I traded for it second hand back in 1990--it was made in 1974.  I traded a Hawken I made plus $400 for it.   Keith's art guns were going for the neighborhood of $50,000 a few years back. The first longrilfe I made cost me $300 in parts [1978] and 166 hrs of labor [I used only hand tools].  If I figured my labor at $50/hr that would add $8300 to the cost.  Although the rifle turned out very well for a first attempt, it certainly would not have sold for $8600 in 1978.  Two things: an unknown builder and modest quality [high quality parts, all original architecture (which worked, everyone loves it), a few slips of the chisel].  But what if I had continued to build and improve? Who knows what it would be worth today?  A friend of mine came from a wealthy background--a ranking DuPont employee's son--his grandmother took in a starving artist and supported him awhile--he left her a few sketches and watercolors as payment--he just died the other day [Andrew Wyeth]--he had paid her "nothing" at the time.  What did Hershel get for his early rifles?   The typical reenactor or hunter, which comprise the base clientele for the builders, cannot afford more than a $2000 rifle-gun.  Many cannot afford that much.  The $50,000 gun is not made for them.  It is made for folks that can afford an original Wyeth.  A whole class of shooters out there can hardly scrape together enough cash to buy a Pedersoli.  Fortunately there are builders who are not in it for the money, like my close friend, who has made hundreds of quality guns for little over the cost of materials.  Those who are trying to make a living building guns have to charge for their labor and should charge for their labor and deserve a good price for a good product like in any other industry or art form....but the history of art is that few artists get rich in their lifetimes [Wyeth and a few others were exceptions].

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 05:19:09 PM »
Several years ago there was a new longbow design that hit the longbow market.  The performance of these new bows was outstanding.  The builder couldn't keep up with demand and was selling them for almost double the price of many high quality custom bows.  There was a faction of traditional archers that were not happy with the prices these bows were bringing, yet the demand at the high price could not be met.  I owned two of these bows and had no problem paying the price.  I also later sold both of them at a profit.  Demand drives price.  If folks are willing to pay $XXXXX for a particular builders rifle, and said builder has a waiting list, it's hard to say they are overpriced.  My personal opinion is that MOST builders do not get what the rifles they build are worth and never will.  There are a few exceptions, but for the most part they are not fairly paid for their time considering the quality of their work.  I would never tell a builder his rifle was overpriced.  I might tell him I can't afford it, but not that it is overpriced.

PINYONE

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 06:46:59 PM »
Hey Long Hunters- i have enjoyed everyones opinions as in hard economic times anything free is nice so keep them coming. Another thought for falling prices- a friend of mine that deals with top rare Firearms dealer Peter Finer said recently in New York Peter told him that sales were way down and he was selling great guns at unbelievable prices- that the buyers just are not there. Today on CNN Home values in 2008 dropped 1.4 trillion in Value in the year.  I think there will be many people who can't afford the big items. This Recession will eventually hit every one out there. As for it not bothering the high end Art - all catagories are going to feel the pressure. I believe it will force a lot of people to re think pricing. Another thought from the Great Pinyone.

Offline Tom Moore

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 06:48:46 PM »
In the early 1970's a guy by the name of Joe Heitz made great cabernet sauvagnon wine in Napa Valley CA. When everybody else charged $5 - $7 he charged $10 -$12 per bottle. His friends used to say: "Joe, you make great wine but you charge too much!". He is said to reply: "It can't be too much. I sell every bottle I make!"...

Offline Darrin McDonal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2009, 06:49:40 PM »
My first thought was, If I won that rifle & someone walked up to me and offered me 60k I would first laugh and then tell them to hit the road. I'm not rich and things are actually quite painful right now but that wouldnt sway my opinion on the value of this piece. I think there are many well know and some not so well known builders out there that truely earn what they get for there pieces and often way less than they are worth.
 The amount of time your name ( and quality work) is "out there" and the more exposure one gets the more they can ask. Simple truth.
D
Apprentice Gunsmith
Colonial Williamsburg
Owner of Frontier Flintlocks

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19546
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 07:04:08 PM »
Eventually a weak economy will impact  the sales and then pricing of fine, hand-crafted items including  longrifles and accoutrements.

Are the wages of gunmakers good or fair?  Not when compared to skilled workers in other fields.  Are the wages of true artists in our field good or fair?  Seldom, but that is often the price of practicing art in many fields.  The same is true for photographers, potters, weavers, furniture makers, those who make custom jewelry.  Let's hope those gunmakers who do depend on their sales weather the next couple of years.  That includes the solid workmen as well as the artists.

I think the "workman" will suffer the most.  I have never figured out how some folks sell lines or models of well-built longrifles for the prices they do.

The high art stuff will always have a market.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Darrin McDonal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 07:10:50 PM »
Amen to that Rich.
Apprentice Gunsmith
Colonial Williamsburg
Owner of Frontier Flintlocks

Tony Clark

  • Guest
Re: LONGRIFLE & ACCOUTREMENT PRICES?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2009, 07:11:57 PM »
Hey Long Hunters- I think there will be many people who can't afford the big items. This Recession will eventually hit every one out there. As for it not bothering the high end Art - all catagories are going to feel the pressure.  Pinyone.

I believe your right about some folks not being able to afford the big items any longer, but it seems to me that when it comes to the "good" stuff there is always somebody out there that can afford it. I'm not to sure its correct to say that the bad economic conditions will effect "everyone" in a negative way. Seems to me that there is always "someone" who is doing well (or very well) even in poor economic times. I'd also say that the high end stuff is less effected in this regard, than all the other levels of collecting.  Good stuff just keeps going up up up. Not to mention that these kinds of times tend to put items on the market that might otherwise not be....and there are buyers out there eagerly pursuing this stuff.
 
Boy if I won that House rifle and someone offered me 60k for it I'd gladly let her go. Lots of good original stuff I would rather have. But thats just me! Regards, TC