Does this old rule hold true today ??

[brooktrout]

I read something on a web site, maybe it was Track of the Wolf, that I took to be an old rule for black powder firearms.  It went something like this:

"The powder charge should be 2 time the diameter of the bore."  So, a 50 cal would shoot 100 grains, 45 cal, shoot 90 grains, etc, etc.

Is that a good rule?  Hold true today?  Given a modern black powder barrel when is enough enough?  I asked it of a black powder shooter and his reply was "as much as you can stand to shoot".  Not very specific.

Currently I'm shooting a 58 cal rifle.  Just started to tinker with it but at about 25 yards, 70 grains is dead on.  At 50 yards, 70 grains is about a foot low.  80 grains appears to raise the impact about 4 inches so 100 grains would theoretically bring it up to center.  Now I know I can file the front site down but I would rather address the load right now.  Rice "D" profile competition barrel.  OK with 100 to 120 grains???

[bob in the woods]

Perhaps a rough guide for max loads ?   I know that my most used load for my 50 cal flintlocks was about 80 gr or so , which would shoot right through deer.  My .54 likes 80 to 100 gr depending on what I'm hunting. And where.  I seldom get a chance at a shot over 50 yards.  My .62 cal rifle is my bear and moose gun. It is usually loaded with 120 gr FFg
I've loaded my 10 bore fowling piece with a ball and 120 to 140 gr FFg.  That said, 100 gr FFg shot completely through a large bear at 25 yards.  I would work up a decent load for what you want to do with the rifle.  My .54 target rifle shoots 60 gr FFg out to 50 yds and 80 gr at 100 yards. Same sight picture.  You don't need a max load to punch a hole through paper.

[JPK]

The way I heard that "rule" was the charge should by the calibre up to double the calibre. That is a 50 would by 50 to 100 grains. And I agree with Bob, your load should suit your rifle and the target.

[jamesthomas]

I read something on a web site, maybe it was Track of the Wolf, that I took to be an old rule for black powder firearms.  It went something like this:

"The powder charge should be 2 time the diameter of the bore."  So, a 50 cal would shoot 100 grains, 45 cal, shoot 90 grains, etc, etc.

Is that a good rule?  Hold true today?  Given a modern black powder barrel when is enough enough?  I asked it of a black powder shooter and his reply was "as much as you can stand to shoot".  Not very specific.

Currently I'm shooting a 58 cal rifle.  Just started to tinker with it but at about 25 yards, 70 grains is dead on.  At 50 yards, 70 grains is about a foot low.  80 grains appears to raise the impact about 4 inches so 100 grains would theoretically bring it up to center.  Now I know I can file the front site down but I would rather address the load right now.  Rice "D" profile competition barrel.  OK with 100 to 120 grains???

 I have a new .40 cal. SMR. there is no way I'm going to shoot 80 grains in it. I was shooting 50 grains in it yesterday at 50 yards and that's about as much as I'm going to shoot in her, its a plinking , small game rifle so 80 grains is a bit over kill.

[Ky-Flinter]

I've always heard to use the same grain weight as the caliber as a starting load.  For example, 40 grains in a .40 caliber rifle, 50 in a 50, and so on.  Shoot a group, then increase the charge 5 grains and shoot another group, until you find your best group.

A powder charge of double the caliber, sounds like a really rough estimate of a maximum load to me.

-Ron

[galamb]

Too many variables from rifle to rifle.

Just like saying 100 grains is a max load for say a 50 cal.

50 cal what? pistol - no, too much powder.

You might wring all the power out of 100 grains with a 48" barrel but what about a 28" barrel?

Will the powder be consumed and turned into thust/force applied against the projectile or will a given amount be blown out of the barrel after the projectile exits.

Also, how much metal is in the barrel?

I might be inclined to shoot 100 grains from a 50 cal that is 1" ATF, maybe not so much if someone built one with a 13/16" barrel (which I believe Traditions or T/C did a while back).

Most barrel mfg's will provide a max load for their barrels. There is other formula out there for optimum loads etc but it's mostly just "voodoo" in many opinions (although I do use a an optimum load formula to determine a starting load in a new barrel).

Too many "rules of thumb" WERE applicable at a given time under a given set of circumstances, unfortunately, most of those have changed a dozen times since the "rule" was written.

[trentOH]

I shoot from 32 caliber to 75 caliber long arms. And I have no reason to shoot 65 grains in a squirrel rifle, and certainly not 150 grains in a brown bess.

 If powder back in "the day" were significantly weaker than today's powders, then maybe "the rule" was more valid.

[Jerry V Lape]

I shoot a .54 for elk and get great accuracy to 100 yds with 90gr of FFg Swiss which is about the same as 105gr of Goex for point impact.  For just plinking or for demonstrations for Hunter Education classes 60 gr of either Swiss or Goex FFg is just fine.  Remember unburned powder still adds weight to the total ejecta departing the muzzle and results in additional useless recoil.  If I am firing a 240gr ball and put 90gr of powder behind it the ejecta now weighs 330gr versus 300gr with the 60 grains of powder in the lighter load and you will feel the difference as the weight thrown and the velocity are greater.(costs more too.) 

[George Sutton]

All black powder rifles require their own load. I once had a .32 caliber Vincent caplock. I started shooting it with 25 grains of 3f Goex. I could not get the gun to group. The more I increased the load the worse it got. I dropped the charge to 20 grains and it shot perfect. Go figure?

Centershot

[Daryl]

I agree with the statements of every rifle needing or dictating it's 'own' load, however much of that depends on the load's characteristics, ie: most importantly fit of ball and patch to the grooves.  The tighter the combination, usually, the more accurately it will shoot, especially at longer ranges - but also, the more powder it will ALLOW while continually giving better accuracy, which improves accuracy at THOSE longer ranges.  "Longer ranges" in this sense, is merely a description of the calibre's potential for use at the sport intended.  Hunting and target shooting may each have different requirements or specification at to what is regarded as long range.  If all of your shooting is at 25 yards, your load combination could be quite different than that needed by those who demand accuracy at 50, 100yards, or 200yards.  It takes more powder to give accuracy at the longer ranges as well as requiring a VERY much tighter ball and patch combinations.

With loose or non-tight combination, the charges themselves must be kept small or gas blow-by may destroy the patch - reducing or eliminating any worthwhile accuracy.

My Large .58 barrel would not shoot well with anything less than 140gr. 2F, however shot excellently with that load on up to 200gr. (1978 era powders) giving the same accuracy at 100yards - 2 1/2" or better for 5-shot groups- off bags, of course.   My .69 is likewise particular as with today's GOEX it will shoot as well with 140gr. 2F as it did 30 years ago with 165gr. 2F.  Reducing the charge to 100gr. will open groups to from 4" to 5" at 100yards - useless for any sort of dependable shooting at longer ranges at which that large ball's killing powder could be put to use.   With it's accuracy loading, it has shot many 2" groups (and smaller)at 100yards and 3" to 3 1/2" at 200yards.
It's best combination is a .684" ball with a 12 ounce .030" denim patch - .690" bore with .012" rifling depth.

My .45, with LHV lube prefers 85gr. 2F or 75gr. 3F - GOEX.

My .40, with LHV lube prefers 75gr. 2F or 65gr. 3F - GOEX.

My .32, with any lube, now using a .320" ball and 8 or 10 ounce denim patches, likes 40gr. 3f GOEX. with a .311" ball and same patch, with still compressed considerably in the bottom of the grooves, would not shoot accurately with more than 35gr. however it would not shoot well with less than 30, either. I am talking about shooting past 25 yards. At that close range, oblong hole of about .40 calibre wold result with a 20gr. charge, but the group increased to over 2" at 50 yards, only tightening up to under an inch with over 30gr.  Thus, one must work up a load using the best components - IF you want the accuracy the rifle and you are capable of.

The .58 M1861 Musketoon Carbine, with it's 24" barrel likes 75gr. to 85gr. with patched RB and will give 3 to 5" groups at 100 meters off bags - it's sights are getting difficult at my current stage of eye-sight.  I'm sure more powder would help stabilize or perhaps shrink the groups, but 80gr. gives me 1,350fps with the RB and more recoil would not be welcome as I can still shoot it without my PAST shoulder protector - the .69 - NO.

One must develop the loads HIS rifle prefers.  There are NO "PAT" formulae that can be applied that will GIVE the best accuracy.  Some modern 'accuracy' rounds have "PAT" loads, but even they need twitching most of the time for the BEST accuracy.
 

[ironwolf]

  You may be thinking of the old ROT of  "Half the ball weight in powder".  This ratio has been extrapolated after researching shipping and warehousing documents.  This would put a .40 caliber around 50 grains.  But all the other variables involved, as the other posters have stated, will STILL require one to test and tune the load.
  An interesting thing I recall the Bevel Bros. writing was an article about the 5 thing most roundball shooters did wrong.
One was too thin a patch, one was ball too small for bore size,  one was too light a powder charge.

  Kev

[hanshi]

I never thought much of these "rules" and went my own way with loads.  In a .32 and .36 20 grains of 3F works fine.  In the .40 I do use 40 grains 3F as an all around load and 60 grains if I go for deer.  .45 & .50 anywhere from 60 grains 3F to 70 grains hits the spot. 

[Micah2]

I used .15 ticking today for the first time I've always used pre lube .10 and I am sold.  I could not shoot a strong huntin load in my .54 I could tell it was not burning all the powder with a .10.  Today with the .15 I shot great groups.  I could really feel  good kick with .75 grains 3f.

[Hadden West]

Are you using FFg or FFFg powder? I would not use max loads in a custom rifle, for fear of splitting the stock. That's just me. Those Max loads might be okay in a heavy stocked Hawken rifle. The FFg would drop the pressure, if you're not already using it. A 100 yards is a long distance for a traditional black powder rifle and I'm sure many would argue that, but those RB"s drop like a lead balloon.

[Daryl]

My .69's 482gr. round ball has a point blank range for hunting deer of 125yards, where the ball is no more than 3" above nor below the line of sight. That gives the 'point blank range where no holdover is required.  For moose, the elevation within the point blank range could be increased due to the huge 'vital' zone - lungs - measuring close to 30" in height, and give a point blank range easily to 150yards.  Having 100, 150 and 200 yard leaf sights on the rifle and using a range finder makes hitting at those range very easy indeed.  Is using a laser range finder primitive - no- but using a 14 bore English Sporting rifle with patched round balls is primitive enough.  

If I have an opportunity to shoot a moose at 150yards with that rifle - I know I can MAKE that shot and it will accurately placed with  the help of knowing exactly what the range is - with no wrong guesswork.

If you can reliably hit that pie plate at THAT range, you can reliably kill big game at that same range - IF your load is good enough & you have a good shot at it - all part of hunting.

That said - I've never shot a moose beyond 95 yards with a muzzle loader - easy shot - and only 200yards furthest range - once, with a modern iron sighted rifle - that was also easy. All the rest have been under 100yards - but- due to practicing, I know I can make a 150yard or even 200yards killing shot on a moose with that rifle.  I would not consider such a long shot with a lesser rifle - or if I didn't have my magical laser range finder.

Note - point blank ranges are only useable if the rifle is sighted appropriately.

[sloe bear]

 when I first started shooting BP, there  that played the game, I read in a old book  I don't' remember where but the old timers would place the ball in the palm of the hand the cover it with powder sounded a little weird but that where I started then I adjusted my powder measure accordingly it works.plain and simple no math or hard work, simple.