Need pic PC 1750-1770 French neck knife

[justAwink]

I have been looking for documented pics of the smaller knives worn around the neck by the Cour De Bois but have only found the larger french trade knives. I am a knife maker and am looking to build a few HC blades for friends and myself as well better our outfits and for H-Trekking.

 From what I can gather the knives being promoted as such by ToW and CC are not correct either. They had iron pins for the handle scales, a slight drop point, about 1" wide or slightly less, no spanish notch, 3.5 or so blade length, full and half tangs and 1/16th to 1/8th thick.

A pic would go a long way in fine tune the shape so if you can help its welcomed

[Chuck Burrows]

All references to neck knives of the period show they were not short bladed, but rather the standard 6-7" bladed boucheron style knives or the 5-6" bladed English case knives, for which here are plenty of original images available. While there may have been some shorter bladed neck knives, the idea for the short bladed neck knife is a modern re-enactorism so if you want to be PC/HC are the knives to copy are the originals.....

example:

here's a French one in the British Museum with sheath - the overall length of 26.5 cm = 10.43" - handles were usually in the 3 3/4" - 4" length leaving a blade of 6-6.4".

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=516322&partId=1&searchText=North+America&fromDate=1760&from=ad&toDate=1810&to=ad&view=list&page=1

Case Knives:
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/images/neck-knife.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/nytrekker/originals/caldwellitems.jpg

some originals:

The first three are Mohawk






the next two are Iroquois




That should get you started - for more info on eastern Woodland neck knives of the era in question I would HIGHLY recommend checking with the folks on the Frontierfolk.net forum http://frontierfolk.net/phpBB/

[LRB]

  Probably, the best you can do would be a scaled down version of the typical boucheron. Two 1/8" iron pins through a partial tang, octagonal grip of beech wood. I would go with a 4 1/2" to 5" blade, but these were listed on shipping manifests as small, medium, and large. No specific sizing. Most relic blades seem to be in the 7" range. Look at these relics and you can get a general idea of sizing and work up a pattern. Below that is my version of the boucheron. I would also second Chucks advise, and especially try to make contact with Ken Hamilton. He is probably the leading expert on French knives.



 

[justAwink]

Thanks for the pics. I have seen those as well but have also seen some that were 4" blades with half tangs but I can locate where that was. I know the "patch knife" is an 19th century invention and not trying to make one but some of the smaller blades carried by the Native Americans and Cour De Bois in the Louisiana Territory.  It looks like the 4" may have been the smallest normally made.

Some one mentioned contacting the Southeastern council for a ruling on them. I have been making knives for a long time and never heard of them but admit I am new to making period pieces.

[Habu]

So far, no references or period illustrations have been found for the practice of neck-carrying a knife smaller than the trade knives.  Surviving examples of neck-carried knives from that period/culture are Native, and fall into the common range of sizes trade by the French and English.  Once the frontier was crossed, traders were the only commercial/large-scale source for knives. 

A quick check of my books and notes didn't turn up anything on archaeologically-recovered fixed-blade knives smaller than the 5" range (4 1/2"-5 1/2"), other than blades that were worn-out to the point of being "awls", or were broken or rusted away.  The blades less than 5" were all from various folding knives. 

There are very few references to the carrying of neck knives by Euros; most of those mentioned are French, in Canada.  Most of those references describe was carried when preparing for war, and the people mentioned are mostly settlers.  For the most part, period descriptions of every-day attire and equipment don't mention neck knives.

In other words, you probably won't find much documentation of small knives (because they didn't seem to be there) worn around the neck by coureurs du bois (because it didn't seem to happen). 

[T.C.Albert]

From what I've read, big clasp knives seem to have been in demand and quite popular, especially with the French...not only are they are well documented in many local digs here in Illinois from a very early date, but much additional reference to habitants carrying them for daily use is recorded as well...in fact, I think a passage tells how at Cahokia, a visitor usually brought his own cutlery ( clasp knife attached to his belt) when calling for dinner...but like Habu mentions, similar documentation for average folks carrying small neck knives seems pretty rare.
tc
 

[Larry Luck]

Not French, but here is a drawing of an original English trade knife blade that Wallace Gusler let me trace and sketch.  It might be helpful for sizing your knife of if anyone wants to make an English version.



The blade was quite thin compared to my expectation.  If I recall correctly, the handles were often painted red.
There was no handle on this knife and my recollection is that I drew the handle from Wallace's description.

Hope this helps,

Larry Luck

[teakmtn]

As mentioned above Ken Hamilton has done extensive research on French knives. In the "Journal of the Early Americas" Ken with Kevin Gladysz, Another eminent authority, They have published a three part article titled "French Knives in North America".
The articles will be found in Volume 1 issues IV, V, and VI. This is an excellent publication for the discerning researcher and enthusiast of American history and material culture of the time period 1521-1848.
You can order back issues directly from the Publisher.
These articles will answer all your questions regarding French Trade Knives and then some. Good luck and Happy Research.

[rich pierce]

This illustrates what a great forum this is, and expertise and answers you can't get anywhere else, probably.

From reading this I get the impression that the petit neck knives popular now are an invention not only in shape and materials but in size as well.

[justAwink]

Sorry for the late reply but I have been busy in the shop filling orders like crazy for Fathers day.

Thanks Teakmtn, I will be ordering those vol's and getting some hard tangible answers. If I am going to spend the time making the blades I want them to be correct.

Thanks to everyone that posted

   shane