Newby with questions on three long rifles

[Mullen Coins]

I am a bit of a novice on Long Rifles and hoping I might get some feedback from the experts.  I am looking at possibly buying three long rifles from a client (I am a coin/currency dealer) but I know very little about these.   The images are not what I would like but all I could do taking them at my client's home.   I welcome any feedback and questions.  I'll have a chance to look more closely at these guns in the near future.

Here are images.

The first is a Tiger Wood that appears to have been modified - no flash pan.



The second is what appears to be a totally original piece but the markings are not clear. There is signature like engraving on the top of the barrel but worn to a point that I can do read it. I am post images of a carving on the stock but again not certain if this helps identify the gun. Hoping the stock carving an "star" might be helpful.






The third is marked as a John McCamant Wellsborough and has a W T Howell action. this gun does have a bit of rust near the end of the barrel.

[JTR]

So the 'client' doesn't have any info on the guns?
John

[Mullen Coins]

No... these were my client's father's guns and they have been on display in my client's home for 25+ years.

[brooktrout]

First of all, let me make it clear that I am the LEAST qualified person to offer any solid opinions but I'm as interested in seeing what others think as anything.  First, I find them visually appealing (but I say the same about ALMOST every gun)!  I recently sought info on a gun that was clearly authentic and while not essentially looking for valuation I still got several estimates.  From photos, they ranged from under $1000 all the way to $8,000.  The one individual who actually saw the gun and is far more informed that I said guns like it sold for between $600 to $1000.  So, what was it worth?  Who knows.  But it's quite hard to tell from photos provided.  But even when you have tons of photos opinions vary considerable.

Also, a gun that has been on someones wall for 25 years could be:
a.  A long hidden treasure
b.  A 26 year old replica.

If the first one is converted to cap lock that along might suggest it was an "old gun".  Impossible to tell however from the pics.
The second one has more of an authentic look about it which is a conclusion I draw from the condition of the wood but then I have not seen a lot, (if any) authentic guns of the period which have the stocks checkered in that fashion.  Other than that feature being suspect, I would feel it were an antique.  The last gun seems to have a variety of decorative features unlike any I have seen and in places where MAYBE they would not have been placed.  They also appear to be various periods and styles , thus my take from that is this is a replica.
Now like I said, I consider this an exercise in sticking my next out and would like to hear what others think not only about the guns but about my views.  BTW, I have done NO search on any of the names named in the initial post.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

You have provided pictures of three fine original Kentucky rifle of significant value.
Hurricane

[mr. no gold]

I will jump in here to venture some opinions. The 'clock' rifle is too indistinct to see much of it. Likely a late flintlock converted to percussion. Is it carved behind the cheek rest? Need some more info here to tell much about it.
The middle gun appears to be a Nicholas Beyer rifle with basket weave, or skip line checkering. Again, hard to tell from the photos. Patchbox certainly looks like his style though other aspects are not strictly 'Beyer". The carving is a bit out of the ordinary, for example.
The last, half stocked gun is indeed a McCammant, (though not sure which one made it), and a pretty nice one. Looks like it was made in Ohio.
As to values, with all of the auctions dumping large numbers of antique guns on the market plus the state of the economy, what they are worth in today's market, I can't say.
If you buy them, consider doing so as a long term investment. The maket will right itself in time, but it probably will be some time before it does.
Thank you for coming here to show your finds. If you will provide more and better photos, you will get more information.
Dick

[BGC]

Can't say too much about the first two rifles, but the third one signed John McCamant, Wellsburg was probably made in Wellsburg, Virginia; now West Virginia.  Since the McCamant family owned and operated their own brass foundry, they used brass under ribs. John McCamant was in WV up until around 1854 then moved to Illinois.

[galamb]

Yes, the McCamment rifle (sometimes spelled McCammant) is very indicative of other work I have seen by both him and his father (James).

With that outstanding National Roads patchbox it would tend to date it before 1854, when he left for Illinois.

It could possibly date in the early 1830's - him and his father were in business together in Washington Co. PA and Brook Co. VA (now W.VA) prior to setting up shop in Wellsburg, but being a half-stock may push it ahead a few years.

It is almost certainly an original percussion, built that way (not converted from flint).

Sorry, no info/recognition of the other two based on the photo's.

[Mullen Coins]

I sincerely appreciate the help of the experts on this forum and will get better image very soon to continue the discussion.  Thank you all!!

[JTR]

It's impossible to say much on the first rifle with just that picture.

I'll agree with mr no gold on the second. Beyer used that patchbox and the stock architecture is similar to his work. He also used the same star with that bit of engraving, on the cheek piece. I can't tell from the pictures, but most/all his triggers have a small lobe or spur on the back end.
Also, there are details on the hinge on the patchbox lid that can indicator Beyers work, but the picture isn't clear enough to see.
The checkering on the wrist is fine.  
You mention that this rifle has a name engraved on the barrel. Beyer signed his barrels, deeply engraved, N. Beyer, N + Beyer, N * Beyer. I'll look for a picture of his barrel signature and post it for you to compare.
He usually carved his stocks in high relief which this rifle doesn't have.
If, it's an original Beyer, even with the non typical carving, it could be worth 10/15K, maybe more... But the question of originality is an important one. If it's a re-stock of Beyer parts, or not a Beyer at all, the value drops significantly.

In the end, to be positive of what you might be buying, you're going to need to have a knowledgeable guy take a look at the rifles.

John

[Buck]

The 2nd one definitely has Beyer furniture. I have studied another identical rifle to this that is pictured in one of Whiskers books, I have thought it to be a restock but 2 almost identical rifles makes me 2nd guess that theory.
Buck

[brooktrout]

Boy I continue to be AMAZED at the knowledge! And based on so little detail and just a few photos.  I'm just trying to guess if they are authentic or replicas!  Well at lease my guess was near correct on the first two....sadly off on the last one.  As to the last one, anyone have any photos or links to this makers works.  I would love to see more.  Also mr. no gold, might you expand on the "auctions dumping" comment  PM me if it's better to do outside the frame of this thread. It is not that I question your statement but would like to dig into it a bit.  I recently was told by a seller that he had sold over $400,000 in antique guns in a recent 10 day period.  And then another comment from an individual in that sellers shop claims they had purchased over 400 flintlocks recently so it does sound like a lot of stuff is moving around.  Maybe time for some bargin hunting?? Thanks.  Maybe someday........

[mr. no gold]

BT, Julia Auctions has been selling two very large collections of Kentucky Rifles since last fall. There are huge numbers of pieces in each collection, and a major collector passed away recently, and his pieces have been sold, or are in the process of being sold. Hence the rich market in these guns, but prices may have been depressed a bit as a result of so many things becoming available in a relatively short period of time. Julia will have another auction soon on the Serkin Collection which is so large that it is being sold in three segments. I think that the next one at Julia will be the last one for a time. In the meanwhile, other pieces continue to show up in more localized sales and auctions. For selective buying, this is a very good time.
There is nothing wrong with the three guns that you have found and shown photos of here. Could use more photos of the first gun, but the second looks correct to me and was made by Nicholas Beyer near Lebanon, PA probably around 1825. This appears to be one of his later guns as it has some 'creative' artistry. A nice piece, nonetheless.
The half stock is quite correct and is representative of the McCammant family level of work. You can find some photos of their rifles in Jim Whisker's, (author), books on VA, WVA, and Ohio gunmakers. These are generally available on the usual book sellers lists. It would seem that this one you have found is better than the average though it appears to have a walnut stock.
Whisker has books on the Lancaster/Lebanon schools and you will find good photos of Beyer's work as well as rifles by other prominent makers of those times. "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle…" by Joe Kindig is a good source, too.
As you delve into this world you will find that it is as complicated as the coin world, if not more so. Have fun!
I can't speak to the claims of your dealer contacts, but frankly, I doubt it. I know the most promnient dealer in the trade and he tells a different story, but…who knows. Ask a realtor how business is and the answer is always "Great, couldn't be better!" while he slowly packs up to go to the poor house.
Dick