Another question about books....

[dlbarr]

The set by Kit Ravenshear:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/284/1/BOOK-GUN-CRAFT-SET

Is it a must have, nice to have etc...

[Dave B]

I have two of the books from his set and would like to pick up the others to round out his contribution to our craft.  There are other books that cover some of the same ground so it is redundant in some respects. That being said. There are things covered that are not discussed in the other rifle building books. Take for example the V spring book. Kit walks you through the process of making your own springs. I have the craft practice book #1 and he walks through making a lock from castings. The rifle shoppe kits come to mind. They have no instructions when you buy them just a bag of parts. I have not seen the other books in such a long time I can not comment on. I confess I have tough about getting the complete set to add to my gun making library. I do not like how small the print is in the books and cant read any of it with out my reading glasses. If you are going to be building a rifle or smooth bore from a kit your better off with one of the other books like Recreating the American Longrifle  or Gunsmith of Grenville Co.  I have both and refer to both on a regular bases when teaching the craft.

[dlbarr]

Thanks Dave. I have Recreating the ALR and just wondered if this would be a worthwhile investment to my [small] library.

[whetrock]

I guess whether or not to buy the KR books depends on what you want to do.

I own the spring book. Much of his attention is given to the fabrication method (making small parts that are then welded together) [and also to making springs out of thin stock].
The fabrication method is, I assume, of certain use to guys who are doing restoration work, where the goal is largely cosmetic. But there are some strong and opposing opinions as to its usefulness in making springs that have functional purpose (need to keep a functional firearm working safely, stand up to cold weather, etc.). That topic came up recently in two different threads. You may want to review those.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31016.0
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30892.msg296266#msg296266
(You may want to note that the first of these includes an opinion about KR's book on springs.)

There are three other methods of making springs that I know of: investment casting, machining (with hacksaw and files, or with a mill), hot forging (anvil and hammers). All three of these methods are generally thought to produce functionally acceptable (safe, reliable) results. Only the forging method is traditional (but even forged springs require a great deal of file work). If traditional methods are your interest, then you may not be very satisfied with the KR book on springs.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have found it necessary to buy a lot of books, because I didn't understand what was presented in one, didn't believe what the author was saying in another, or the book wasn't in-depth enough in my main area of interest.

I would not say the Ravenshear books are a must-have. These came out when there was little material out there on building guns. They certainly served a purpose, but are dated.

[JCKelly]

Gunsmithing written by a man who did it for a living, with rifles meant for serious use, is The Modern Gunsmith, Vols 1 & II, by James Virgil Howe. He discusses, in English, the practices used in the 1930's and 1940's. His sections on forging, welding, and springs are real, not something dreamed up by a wannabe frontiersman. Some may shudder a bit at chemicals he uses, e.g. cyanide, corrosive sublimate (mercuric chloride) but they work well -Just don't eat them.

abebooks dot com has two volume sets beginning at $70, today June 1.

JV Howe's father was a metallurgist - I read his Dad's 1903 book and liked the clear explanations, though I have to say our understanding of basic metallurgy developed quite a bit over the following half-century.

[WKevinD]

Kit gave me a set of these with a bit of advise "read them and if you glean one worthy piece of advice from each it's worth my putting them together"
I read them all, found good stuff in each and have disregarded some as impractical or beyond my reach.
I wish he were still around to argue his points especially over a (few) gin and tonic.

[JTR]

, not something dreamed up by a wannabe frontiersman.

Wow, tough words for a dead guy that you obviously didn't know....

And for a supposedly educated man, to bad you couldn't take the time to read the introduction on the inside cover of his Spring book where he states "These manuals will primarily deal with ANTIQUE GUNS,,,"

Also, out of the 20 pages in the booklet, he devotes a little over 3 pages in PART 3, Repairs and Alterations, to repairing springs by welding. The remainder of the booklet is devoted to making non-welded new springs, tempering, annealing, etc.

Perhaps you should read the book before you comment, if your super ego will allow...

John

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
They are an excellent investment and very cheap.  They are "dated" only with respect to the lists of suppliers and some materials Kit used.  I refer to them all the time and not just for springs but also metal and woodwork.  I wish Kit was still around.

dave

[bob in the woods]

The book referred to by Mr Kelly is a good one. I was able to obtain a copy from our library some time ago. It didn't really make me want to obtain my own copy, because I am precisely interested in the longrifles of the 18th C made here in America, and the methods/means used to make them.  20th C stuff is "modern" in my eyes, and outside my area of interest. I doubt very much if cyanide, corrosive sublimate and other chemicals /processes were ever used by the gunsmiths in Christian's Spring, Lancaster, etc,   Antique is a relative term. Guns from the later half of the 19th C are wonderful marriages of wood and metal and I can appreciate their craftsmanship and beauty, but they aren't "long rifles" .
There are many ways to make a spring, but for me..watching W. Gusler make the springs for the lock of the Colonial Williamsburg Gunsmith rifle  is absolutely fascinating. That is what I strive to recreate.

[whetrock]

... the inside cover of his Spring book where he states "These manuals will primarily deal with ANTIQUE GUNS,,,"

[Since I noted above that KR's approach was not traditional, I should mention that]
KR also says that he doesn’t intend for his methods to represent the traditional approach.

“Gunsmiths of olden times did not have access to nicely sized, rolled iron and steel strip and plate. They either were, or had access to, skilled blacksmiths who could accomplish most of the rough shaping of parts needed. These parts were then finished with a file. This was true of springs, too. But I am not a skilled blacksmith and I’m supposing that you are not, either, so I am setting out my method of making the unusual shapes required in most V-springs without having to do endless hacksawing of heavy bar stock.” (Ravenshear, first edition 1990, p.3, underlining is his)

Dave (the "Dave" who posted the question that started this thread),
as Tallbear noted in reply #18 (may 25, http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31016.15), the negative opinion some guys have about some methods of spring making is not because the methods are non-traditional methods. It's because they feel that those methods don’t yield high quality. That opinion may be of some use to you.

[JCKelly]

JTR - I absolutely did not mean to refer to Ravenshear as a "wannabe frontiersman", I like his work & now & again have referred people to it. He can take a technical subject and translate it into words that can be used in one's home workshop. I appologize for any misunderstanding.

As far as the size of my own ego I have no problems with your comment & accept it as a complement.

I really should not comment on metallurgical items here.

Metallurgy has been my profession for a good half-century now. I do tire of seeing fine craftsmen use the worst grades of steel they can possibly find and heat treating them without any background from knowledgeable men such as James Howe or Kit Ravenshear. All this does is raise my blood pressure and irritate those who . . . enough.

Beginning in the late 1960's I had occasion to communicate with the finest metal craftsman in the US. One could weep looking at the beautiful, but broken, springs he sent now & again. I never succeeded in getting him to temper those nice modern steel springs hot enough. Last one I saw he found a local source for strip in, I believe, 1095. Appropriate steel but the strip was made for a specific end use, by a process that left a defect or so that probably wouldn't have mattered for the intended product but did mess up a fine mainspring.

Steel is much cheaper than the hours you spend working on it. Stay out of the scrap yard. Buy something, preferably made in USA or Europe, from you favorite on-line dealer. Then you know what you have (unless it came from a popular Asian source).

So my final preaching - do not use 18th or 19th century heat treat methods with 21st century steel. They do not always mix well.
You cannot get traditional steel anymore. Well, in theory you can get some current production British wrought iron and deeply case-harden ("cement") it to make blister steel, which you can then break, bundle & forge into shear steel, from which you can make a typically so-so traditional spring.
Or you can assume you are gonna copy a 19th century "cast steel" spring and buy the nearest thing, that being probably 1074 steel. Actually that is a god choice, as it will tolerate quite a bit in heat treating & still make a decent spring.
But I am going astray. Someone told you that O1 is better, well "better" in what way? So you make a lovely O1 spring & then heat treat it as some Wannabe Frontiersman says and it breaks. Yup.

I'm sorry guys, I have no business commenting here. Sad to say, you do live in the 21st century and must, for the most part, deal with 21st century metal. Get thee Ravenshear, or Howe if you are brave.

[JCKelly]

P.S. - I have 7 of Ravenshear's books, must have kept the V-spring one in a special place as I can't find it tonight. So I just bought a copy of "springs" from TOW.

[Feltwad]

I remember when I bought  a new flintlock musket Belgium made  from Kit Ravenshear when he worked for Normans Of Framlington here in the UK  before he settled in the States.
Feltwad

[Steve Bookout]

Kit (may he rest in peace) taught me personally how to make springs back in the 80s because I couldn't make one following his booklet instructions.  He shut down his shop and an hour later I was tall cotton.  After a couple three hundred successful springs under my belt, I still follow those methods.  The method displayed on my website is from his teaching an old dog new tricks.   By the by....his original spring book is written in two distinct styles.  The first issue was written for the English audience and the second for Americans.

[JCKelly]

Another book.
Years ago I bought Buchele's book, 1966 edition, as about the only one available.
Thought that was it.
Then bid on & got Recreating the American Long Rifle, by Buchele, Shumway and Alexander. ©1983 4th edition, hard cover.
Wow!
I got it because I had great respect for both Buchele and Shumway, never met Alexander.
Just scanned through it so far. Combines Shumway's matchless knowledge of the originals with Buchele's art & skill.
If I had to have just one book on rifle making, this would be it.

[David R. Pennington]

I like Kit's little books and refer to them often. I like all my books on gun building and now that I have them they are all "must haves". Kit's little books reside in my shop on the shelf with my Machinist's Handbook and other references. I have gleaned lots of useful information from them just as I have from ALR. 
JC, I appreciate your professional insight on metallurgy and your passion for your profession. Please continue to try and educate us.
Some of us are not learned metallurgists nor professional gunsmiths but only pursue this as a hobby and for the great enjoyment it affords.
Despite the warnings to the contrary I will probably continue to rummage in the scrap heaps for raw materials and experiment with barbaric heat treating methods, some of which I am sure will fail, but I sure am having fun!
I was endowed with a recycle/pack rat mentality from my paternal grandfather who out of necessity was a great recycler. He grew up on a poor hillside farm and raised a large family during the great depression. Nothing was wasted! I am sure the same held true for the gunsmiths on our early frontier.

[JCKelly]

Using recycled material & figuring out how to make it work might be considered part of the fun of this whole thing. I just happen to prefer to know what I'm working with, saves misery after a lot of filing.

All my own heat treatment is also Barbaric, done with a propane or at best MAPP gas torch (sold my furnace decades ago to Bill Behnke). I have mixed feelings about it.

In the middle ages, suits of armor were a more-or-less medium carbon steel and they were indeed heat treated. They heated the metal, I suppose to that precise temperature we call "red hot", then cooled/quenched them in a sloppy manner which today is called a "slack quench". In other words, not really fast enough to harden well. On the other hand, it sort of hardens the metal, but not very much so one does not require to temper it with precise control of tempering temperatures in the 400 - 1100F range. Hurts me, as I keep thinking modern heat treat.

But on the other hand, a half-A-- quench like 1095 cooled somehow in an old motor oil bath leaves the steel in less than file-hard condition,which means that Dark-of-the-Moon techniques like burning off one's favorite oil will likely temper it enough it doesn't break in your lock.

One reason Mr. Roller & others (in my personal opinion) extol the virtues of 1070 or 1075 steel for springs is it is less likely to get too @!*% hard in Basement Heat Treat. Too @!*% Hard will make a lovely spring break in your lock just setting on the table. My, my wish I hadn't a done that, or similar words. If you must use scrap for springs (horrible idea) then better to use old power lawn-mower blades, 40-50 year old ones being 1070, current production 10B35) than to use files or truck springs (both likely 1095). Wood saw blades I suspect are too thin but the steel is about right for a decent spring.

A metallurgist or metallurgical book will extol the virtues of 1095, WI or, lord forbid, O1 over that mediocre 1075 stuff. But that is true only for the guy with good temperature control in the 700-1000F range (no, no, no - molten lead will not do it) which few of us have. I might suggest you save your 1095 or tool steel for tools which are supposed to be harder'n H--- .

Dog asking for last walk-of-the-night.

[Bob Roller]

I extol the virtues of 1075 for springs because it WORKS and I've proven that
for decades.RESULTS are all that's important.0-1 makes fine sears and the "fly"
and 1144 "Stressproof"makes a fine tumbler.12L14 for screws works well.
My heat source is a Prestolite "B" cylinder that has 40 cubic feet of acetylene and
acetone under high compression. It makes a fine HOT flame and I've used this for
nearly 50 years.An alternative is a gasoline fired blow torch but I haven't seen one for
years that still had a good compression pump.

Bob Roller

[David R. Pennington]

Bob, I still have an old gas blow torch that works. Most of the pumps have leather seals that have dried out. Sometimes giving them a good soak in oil will swell them and get them working again. New leather washers can be made for them. I haven't used mine in a while. They are a little scary to use. Mine has a trough around the base that you let fill with gasoline when you light it and as it burns off it preheats the generator to help vaporize the fuel. Not an inside toy. I mostly used it to heat soldering irons. Keep one on the torch while using the other. Now I find it's almost as easy to light the forge. I have prestolite tank as well and use my little oxy/acet outfit for most small stuff.
My neighbor (an excellent machinist and modern gunsmith) showed me the flaw in my replacement mainspring I had made for a lock. The material had thinned at the bend when I formed it allowing too much flex at that point. Although it is a better spring than the factory one it replaced it is still not stout enough. Yesterday I forged a blank for another one out of a piece of old horse drawn hay rake tooth. It is buried in the ashes waiting for the file work.

[Bob Roller]

David R.
You may have the last living gasoline blow torch.I haven't owned one for years but still have a few old soldering "coppers" as they were called.George Killen,a local gunsmith made a big gasoline torch from
a brass fire extinguisher and pumpled it up with a tire pump.It got HOT and sounded like a jet plane.
I'll stay with my Presto-lite "B"with a #3 and #5 tips and less risk that.

Bob Roller

[jerrywh]

 Don't read the one on spring making. It will just mess you up.