Measureing for LOP

[brooktrout]

Seems like a simple thing.  Distance from the trigger to the butt, right?  But no, someone tells me the measurement is taken from the trigger finger in shooting position, with the arm held in shooting position, and the measurement is from the trigger finger back to the interior bend of the elbow.  What!

So even if that were correct, would not simple geometry still translate that into the distance between the trigger and the butt?

I have seen a number of youtubes on the subject but all focus on where the cheek meets the stock and how that can be too high or too low (eye alingment looking down the barrel) but no one specifically says when a LOP is stated at 14 inches, what measurement are we speaking of?

[Ryan McNabb]

LOP on the stock is measured from the center of the trigger to the interior of the curve of the butt.  Measuring the body of the shooter is more of a discussion of gun fitting, of which there are many many measurements (width of each shoulder, height of head, even width of eyes from centerline) that have nothing to do with building longrifles.  These come from fitting shotguns when ordering a bespoke gun for wing shooting.

Most people in the height range of 5'10" or better are going to feel comfortable with a 14" LOP.  Very tall guys, maybe a little more, shorter shooters get into the 13"+ range.  LOP of original rifles is of course all over the map and I don't doubt was often customized to the shooter based on whatever measurement everyone liked at the time.

I personally think John Davidson must have been about 7' tall judging from his rifle...

[James Rogers]

Length of pull on the firearm is from trigger to butt.
Length of pull in relation to the individual is a chosen measurement of comfort in mounting based on body configuration, stance and style of mount. That chosen measurement, although not too critical to be exact in itself becomes the platform factor in determining how other critical stock measurements fit the shooter. Change the length of pull and the other measurements (such as comb drops and pitch) if left the same will fit the shooter differently.
More critical for fowling pieces than for rifles but it is always nice to have a piece that fits.
Some rifle styles create quite an interesting dance between fit and keeping with the aire of the historical look.
Length of pull becomes a big issue then, especially when using off the peg parts on a build with a 14 3/4" trigger pull that was based on an original with 13.

[brooktrout]

Good stuff.  Shortly after posting the question I think this little light went off.  If you are building a gun for a specific person it makes sense that "fitting" it would consider the measure of the person's physical characteristics since the gun is yet to be constructed.  But once a gun is made the LOP can be identified by the measurement as per the "distance" between trigger and butt.  I guess essentially it's all the same in a manner of speaking.

[oldways]

One more thing that you may want to consider is what it will be used for. Target shooting or a hunting rifle,clothing for cold weather can add extra reach.

[brooktrout]

Another good consideration.  Extra clothing will "bulk-up" the shoulder so allowing for that would be a shorter LOP?  But for this specific situation it will not be used for hunting so a "naked" measurement would be longer.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

LOP on Longrifles will also affect how the rifle balances. A shorter LOP will make the rifle feel lighter by moving the center back toward the shooter.

[Curt Lyles]

  I have a couple of rifles that have 13 in LOP and they fit me MUCH better .13 1/2 is what I usually would build for myself .I have handed these rifles to different shooters just to see their response and its allways the same, they like it better also. im just average build and weight so I think most folks are using too long of  LOP.Having a rifle built for you is like buyin a new suit ,it needs to fit you,.Curt JMHO

[rich pierce]

Good point.  There seems to be a trend toward "I need a long length of pull" yet most people can shoot a factory modern shotgun effectively.

[Pete G.]

LOP  is more critical to a shotgun shooter than a rifle. Since the rear sight on a shotgun is the eye, then LOP determines where the "cheek weld" occurs, which affects the height due to the drop in the stock. All else being equal, a longer LOP means a lower sighting height in a stock with drop at heel. A less than optimum (within reason) LOP can be accommodated in a rifle because the shooter consciously aligns the sights. Generally a too short LOP is easier to manage than one too long.

The old rule about the inside measurement from the elbow to the first joint of the trigger finger is an oft quoted rule, but it tells you one thing and one thing only; the distance from the elbow to the first joint of the trigger finger.

[Stophel]

13 1/2".     If I can comfortably shoot a rifle with a 13 1/2" pull length (and less), being 6' 2" with a 38" sleeve, anyone else can too!     So far, I have been pretty successful at getting people to realize that.. once they handle one and hold it properly.   

Shotguns are different, and some people like them longer (I don't) because they are held quite differently than rifles should be.... at least the earlier type of rifles that I like to do.

[Dennis Glazener]

LOP  is more critical to a shotgun shooter than a rifle. Since the rear sight on a shotgun is the eye, then LOP determines where the "cheek weld" occurs, which affects the height due to the drop in the stock.

When I am looking for a fowler (or shotgun) I shut my eyes and shoulder the gun into my normal shooting position. When I open my right eye I expect to be looking right down the barrel with the eye/back of the breech/front sight to all be on the same plane.

If the LOP is too long I will have the front sight well above the breech and the gun will shoot high for me. Now trap shooters want their guns to shoot like this but for normal upland hunting I prefer to be looking right down the "spout", if I miss its all my fault.
Dennis

[James Rogers]

LOP  is more critical to a shotgun shooter than a rifle. Since the rear sight on a shotgun is the eye, then LOP determines where the "cheek weld" occurs, which affects the height due to the drop in the stock. All else being equal, a longer LOP means a lower sighting height in a stock with drop at heel. A less than optimum (within reason) LOP can be accommodated in a rifle because the shooter consciously aligns the sights. Generally a too short LOP is easier to manage than one too long.

The old rule about the inside measurement from the elbow to the first joint of the trigger finger is an oft quoted rule, but it tells you one thing and one thing only; the distance from the elbow to the first joint of the trigger finger.

I concur

[Captchee]

  This is one of those questions where your probably going to get a lot of different answers .  But IMO James has it rather right .
 While its often considered more important for the shot gun shooter . It also relates to the rifles itself  in that its just one measurement of many .
  I think one of the reasons  that there are often so many opinions is that the vast majority of folks  have never  had the opportunity to  shoot a rifle that’s properly fit to them .  Basically they learn to shoot the rifle they have  by modifying their stance and hold to accommodate the ill fit of the gun .
 Simply put its  something that they just have gotten used to .
So you see the  tall , long armed person ,   wrapping themselves around a rifle like a CVA or traditions , with a short pull and shallow drop , like a monkey humping a football , while trying to get down on the sights .
 Or visa versa  the shorter  built person with their head way back on the stock because they can reach the longer pull  of the gun.

 Really not much of that maters if the person does a lot of rested shooting . But if that person does  a lot of off hand shooting or snap type shooting with a rifle  then  IMO its preferable  have  the pull considered  in  the overall measurements of the stock  .

 Myself I do a lot of off hand shooting .  Frankly I really enjoy long range, off hand  at distances of 150-350 yards . Thus  I use a very erect stance with a 90 deg  shoulder .  I don’t want to have to hunt for the sights .  When the rifle comes up , I want to  be looking right through them . In other words , they immediately center to my eye . Same goes for the pull .  When I rise the rifle  I want that 90 degree  angle of  my upper arm  to elbow .  IE  no drooping elbow  or where its forward  as with to long a pull or back with to short a pull .
So in so many words , the rifle must come up proper  so that I don’t have to lean down , search for the sights  or adjust the gun to my shoulder .
 Basically just the same as a Trapp shooter  who wants their gun configured to properly fit  the correct stance  for  what they do . I also think we often forget that a lot of  the  purpose built shotguns of today , also carry rear reference. IE the shooter may run a double  bead  or a higher raised rib . Its also not uncommon to see stocks built  with not only adjustable butt plates so as to lengthen the pull but also adjustable combs  and adjustable cheek plates  just like on tournament type rifles .

 But again  to relate back to what James said .  Assuming that taking a single measurement  and thus defining the length of pull   on a rifle , without consideration  of the other measurements really doesn’t achieve much . In  fact in some case as with working  with a pre-carved stock  and then cutting its pull down to fit a  smaller person , can   result in a long arm with a butt stock that’s nothing more then what one would see on a blanket type gun  .

 But to answer your question , when I measure a person for  length of pull on a new stock . The measurement is from  the first joint of the finger to the inside of the  elbow. Thus if they lay the rifle on its side  so that the butt plate is in the crook of their arm , the  trigger finger is  right on the trigger .
 From their I adjust the measurement to them . IE some folks like just the tip of the finger on the trigger .  Are they shooting with  heavy cloths on …..  Some folks have longer upper arms  and shorter  forearms ….. So that  first measurement really becomes  a base measurement and not something that’s set in stone       

[brooktrout]

Well, yes there does seem to be variations but still the generalizations are about the same. 

Now about that shooting.  350 yards!  1050 feet!  Over 3 football fields!  Amazing is an understatement.  I cannot even see 350 yards.

Just wondering...you must take some time to "aim" right?  Is this target shooting or hunting?  What cal rifle?  What load do you use for 350 yards.  "Loaded for Bear", I bet!  If target shooting what is the size of the target?  I read about the Springfield trapdoors being demonstrated to a group once back shortly after it was put into service.  Something like 2 + thousand yards.  But they were shooting at a target of maybe 6 to 8 feet in diameter.  Seems like firing a mortar more than shooting a rifle.  How much time passes from the time you raise the gun until the shot is fired?

You also hit on another point.  Within reason, I like to shoot my guns, all sorts, as they are "found".  I know people who spend more time tinkering with the sights that actually shooting.  I think they are mostly not very good (sort of like myself) but I allow a gun to have it's "faults" and all I try to do is come to know them and adjust when I am shooting them.  Never hunt, it's always target shooting so it's really not that critical. 

[Captchee]

ahhh no not hunting , target shooting .
 ill start a thread in the shooting forum  so as to answer your questions .
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31130.0