Author Topic: Gravers  (Read 17060 times)

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Gravers
« on: May 31, 2014, 12:54:34 AM »
I'm about to embark into what is to me the uncharted waters of basic long rifle engraving.  A while back my decidedly better half gave me a beginner's engraving set from Track of the Wolf for Christmas.  Along with some odds and ends, it included a DVD on Beginning Engraving by Jack Brooks, a #1 square graver, a push handle for the graver, and a chasing hammer.  Not sure why they included a chasing hammer with a push graver.  My question is on the correct size graver I should have.

In the excellent DVD Jack demonstrates, among other things, doing basic engraving with a chasing hammer and square graver that appears to be considerably larger than the tiny #1 push graver, which from what I gather is suited for detail work and shading.  Track sells square gravers from #1 to #5 and MBS sells a #6.  My question is what size, or sizes, of square gravers should I have on hand to begin learning to do some basic engraving?  Thanks.

Mole Eyes   

   
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline hortonstn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
Re: Gravers
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2014, 01:44:02 AM »
I recommend checking out Lindsey engraveing web sight he sells sharpening tools that are spot on
A dull tool will aggravate you until you. Give up  give yourself a chance stay sharp

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4310
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Gravers
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 02:03:47 AM »
My favorite go to tool for engraving is a die sinkers chisel.  I bought 3 from Brownell's many years ago and sharpened 1 square, 1 flat and 1 round.  I used these for years. Later on I invested in the Lindsey templates and 3/32" HSS blanks because I was having trouble with my eyes and could not get the tools sharpened to m y liking.  After cataract surgery I was able to see once again and went back to my die sinkers chisels for hammer engraving and relinquished my Lindsey tooling to my GRS graver max.  I really like the weight and feel of the die sinkers chisels.  Even mounting up the 3/32" HHS into steel handles the feel was a bit too flimsy for myself.
David   

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7855
Re: Gravers
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 02:42:59 AM »
The small amount of engraving I have done was done will die sinkers also. They are just easyer for my old hands to grasp and control.  Keeping them sharp is also good advice. I also have a small dish with cotton balls in it with tapping fluid soaked in to the cotton. Every inch or so I just lightly touch the graver to the cotton balls. I dont know if it helps much but I do it anyway.   ;D

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4328
Re: Gravers
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2014, 02:52:41 AM »
If, you're going to push it, a #1 will be fine to learn with. If you're going to use a hammer a larger one might be better.

As mentioned, a good sharp tool is vital and a Lindsey template or another type of sharpening fixture will go a long way in easing the pain of cutting a straight line.

John  
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 03:09:59 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline gunmaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • the old dog gunmaker
Re: Gravers
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2014, 03:04:23 AM »
Watch the DVD again, He shows how to make a graver from a file---they work great, been using one for 3-4 yr.  Just keep her  "SHARP".....Tom

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Gravers
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2014, 04:34:36 AM »
Watch the DVD again, He shows how to make a graver from a file---they work great, been using one for 3-4 yr.  Just keep her  "SHARP".....Tom

Tom,

Yes I saw that.  That's one of the things that made me realize that his graver was a whole heck of a lot bigger than the #1 I got from TOW in that beginners engraving set.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2161
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: Gravers
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2014, 05:23:28 PM »
It is not so much the size of the graver but the heel you have on the graver. The heel is the part that does the cutting. The larger the heel the larger the cut. I used to use the larger gravers untill I discovered that I was spending time sharpening the surfaces that did no cutting just to keep the face of the graver in the configuration that I wanted. The smaller the face the less time spent in touching up the point to keep it sharp.

I also converted to using the Lindsey Point over the standard heel. The Lindsey point allows to cut a very slim hair line or you can roll the graver a little and get a wide cut. This allows you to graduate from a slender to wide flare and then back to a slim cut all in one motion. This can be done with the standard heel also but I find it easier to do with the Lindsey point.

The only advantage to larger graver is strength at the face and a lot of that depends on how steep the face angle is, usually the steeper the face the stronger the point.

I know that Heshel uses a Die Sinkers chiesels to make his gravers and he does fabulous work so I think it is what you get accustomed to using.
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

BrushCountryAg03

  • Guest
Re: Gravers
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2014, 05:48:13 PM »
+ 5 on the LINDSAY ENGRAVING route!!!

Here's one of my recent orders included within is the Classic Handpiece with Palm Control, which if you have the $$$, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT:




Before I was able to afford it myself, I also used the Lindsay Chasing Graver Holder.

In addition, (and optional but "almost essential") I would strongly recommend you buy a heavy duty turntable along with some sort of heavy duty graver ball  and then find a used drill press stand w/ table on which you would ideally mount your turntable & ball. 

Here's a good picture off the internet of what I'm talking about for an "ideal setup" using a stereoscope:




Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
Re: Gravers
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2014, 06:29:55 PM »
Take a really good look at historical engraving; not just the overall effect, but really look closely at the individual cuts. Probably 95%+ used just basic line engraving and once you study closely you will see lots of wobbly lines, bumpy curves and uneven borders. The point is that longrifle engraving is NOT what you see on Italian shotguns. You can make a handle for a graver out of a piece of oak dowel and get long just fine. The size of the graver itself is really not that important, only the tip is what does the cutting. Put your #1 in the palm handle and use it for small shading lines and such, then get another graver from TOW (I use a #4) and put a handle on it for chasing work. Go to you local home improvement store and get a brass door kickplate (not the brass plated aluminum one). It contains lots of practice plates and a ton of inlays, assuming you have a jeweller's saw.  If you don't have one then you have a built in selection for the next present from your wife.

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Gravers
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2014, 07:46:47 PM »
It is not so much the size of the graver but the heel you have on the graver. The heel is the part that does the cutting. The larger the heel the larger the cut. I used to use the larger gravers untill I discovered that I was spending time sharpening the surfaces that did no cutting just to keep the face of the graver in the configuration that I wanted. The smaller the face the less time spent in touching up the point to keep it sharp.

I also converted to using the Lindsey Point over the standard heel. The Lindsey point allows to cut a very slim hair line or you can roll the graver a little and get a wide cut. This allows you to graduate from a slender to wide flare and then back to a slim cut all in one motion. This can be done with the standard heel also but I find it easier to do with the Lindsey point.


Thanks, I've spent a couple of hours on the Lindsey site this morning reading up on their products based on what everyone has been saying about them.  I've decided to get some HSS blanks and the sharpening tool with the basic template they recommend.  As I understand it, it will allow me to make the Lindsey Point you and others recommended from the blanks. 

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Gravers
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 07:52:39 PM »
Take a really good look at historical engraving; not just the overall effect, but really look closely at the individual cuts. Probably 95%+ used just basic line engraving and once you study closely you will see lots of wobbly lines, bumpy curves and uneven borders. The point is that longrifle engraving is NOT what you see on Italian shotguns. You can make a handle for a graver out of a piece of oak dowel and get long just fine. The size of the graver itself is really not that important, only the tip is what does the cutting. Put your #1 in the palm handle and use it for small shading lines and such, then get another graver from TOW (I use a #4) and put a handle on it for chasing work. Go to you local home improvement store and get a brass door kickplate (not the brass plated aluminum one). It contains lots of practice plates and a ton of inlays, assuming you have a jeweller's saw.  If you don't have one then you have a built in selection for the next present from your wife.

Lindsey is backordered on the graver holder at the moment.  So, I'll do as you suggested and make a holder out of a piece of oak dowel and see how that works out for me.  No use spending money on a graver holder if a piece of oak dowel will do the job.

I have a jeweler's saw that gets a lot of use now as well as a lot of sheet brass, so no problem there.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Ryan McNabb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • McNabb's Station
Re: Gravers
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2014, 10:09:23 PM »
Its probably been said before, but I would heartily recommend that you NOT purchase an expensive modern setup like this.  Get one good square steel graver and a nice quality little hammer, then spend all that money you were going to spend on the Lindsay set up and the engraving ball and go to Bowling Green for actual instruction from people who know this work.  I layed out for a beautiful big engraving ball and all it does is take up space...it serves no purpose for longrifle work.  Later on, in a year or two, you might want to invest in a second graver but even that is a splurge.  I never cared much for jeweler's  saws either, even on quite ornate pierced boxes.  They didn't save me any time and I dropped them.  Once you change a bunch of broken blades and have fussed around, the parts can be hacked and filed to finished shape much quicker.

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Gravers
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2014, 12:17:51 AM »
Its probably been said before, but I would heartily recommend that you NOT purchase an expensive modern setup like this.  Get one good square steel graver and a nice quality little hammer, then spend all that money you were going to spend on the Lindsay set up and the engraving ball and go to Bowling Green for actual instruction from people who know this work.  I layed out for a beautiful big engraving ball and all it does is take up space...it serves no purpose for longrifle work.  Later on, in a year or two, you might want to invest in a second graver but even that is a splurge.  I never cared much for jeweler's  saws either, even on quite ornate pierced boxes.  They didn't save me any time and I dropped them.  Once you change a bunch of broken blades and have fussed around, the parts can be hacked and filed to finished shape much quicker.

Ryan,

I believe in the KISS approach and consequently am only going with some square graver blanks and a sharpening guide with the template to help me get the angles right when I create the cutting edges.  A big bucks engraving rig isn't something I want at all, though others may.

However, I haven't experienced the problems you've had with a jeweler's saw.  I don't try to force it and I rarely ever break a blade.  I find that with the proper coarseness of the blade for the job at hand and sufficient lubing with bee's wax it cuts quickly and smoothly.  Of course that's cutting brass and German silver; I've never tried cutting anything else with it.

 
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Ryan McNabb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • McNabb's Station
Re: Gravers
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2014, 01:45:43 AM »
Maybe I should give it another shot...I've got some Lauck and Sheetz stuff in the pipeline that may benefit from it.  Beeswax may be the ticket there.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5108
Re: Gravers
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2014, 02:21:20 AM »
Quote
I believe in the KISS approach and consequently am only going with some square graver blanks and a sharpening guide

Make your own graver holder from whatever material you have handy.  This one is 3/8" aluminum rod, 6" long, and drilled for 1/8" HS lathe bits which are about $1.50 instead of the $5 that others charge.  Lindsay can provide you with an 1/8" mandrel to hold the tips in his templates.  Alternatively, you can pay the higher price for the 3/32" ones and use his regular setup.  A metal holder will transmit your hammer blows more readily to the tip, whereas a wooden one will absorb some of the blow.

Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 702
Re: Gravers
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2014, 03:54:00 AM »
A standard bench vise is more than OK for engraving,,those high quality European firearms are generally done by holding the parts in nothing more than that.
Standing while chasing as opposed to sitting seems to be the prefered and taught manner in most of the world except the USA.  The standard bench vise positioned high and accessable 2/3 the way around it is usually the way they're used.
The engravers 'ball' vise was originally for hand graver work,mostly in the jewelry trades. But has become with some super sizing, a mainstay of the trade now especially with most everyone using air assisted machines.
Add microscopes, turntables, sharpening must-haves and all sorts of extra equipment it's no wonder a person wanting to try metal engraving gets confused and overwelmed by the amount of gadgets and the cost.

Anyway,,a vise doesn't have to be fancy to work,,just sturdy and vibration free,,and something that doesn't give you a back ache in the first 15 minutes of use.

I'd say start with a simple square graver and hammer. By 'square' I mean an included angle on the face of 90*.
Anything less or more I'd call a V graver. 
The 90* is easy to sharpen and keep the angle there. Using an 1/8 or 3/32 tool bit to start with gives you the angle right up front. Chose a face angle,,45* is again simple and efficient enough for most work. Put a small lift heal on each side with a simple drag of the graver backwards accross the stone or grit surface.  Nothing more than a couple degrees to 5 is needed. Too much and the heal  drags on the outside of a curved line as you cut,,that ragged and jagged look to curves you sometimes see.
The Lindsey type sharpening technique helps avoid that by shaping the heal in two distinct planes. It works very well, but you can cut beautifully w/o it.  Engravers have done so for centurys.
You are ready to cut.

Scarf off any extra off the top of the face of the graver to get rid of the bulky look but more so to make re-sharpening easier. Less material to remove and easier to keep flat.

My engraving hammer was always a Stanley 2oz ball peen. Big perhaps by most ideas of what an engraver hammer should be, but after struggling early on with a standard thin shaft chasers hammer, I went to that. It was my 'bench hammer' as a gunsmith so I was right at home with it.


After the basics, you'll get into changing face angles, heal, included angle ect for different materials and effects.
I wouldn't bother with all that while trying to simply learn to cut. A 90/45/5* Square graver will do it for you.
After all these years I cut most everything with a 60/45/5* 'V' graver. So much for change.

Wood handle,,metal handle, diameter, length?? Whatever is comfortable. I used wooden handles for nearly 15 years then switched to the square steel 'Belgian' style handles for the next 20.
Now I use an air assist tool as I can't even hold on to a chasing chisel anymore. At least I can still do work. Without them I'd have been done altogether 10yrs ago. Technology is good,,we just don't like the change sometimes.

 Everyone is different,,don't be afraid to try different styles of tool bits, handles, ect.
Make some yourself, buy some if they look friendly. You'll settle on one type after a while.
Keep things simple, the trade is difficult enough to learn w/o all the confusing math and special this and that.
Have fun,,

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Gravers
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2014, 04:29:02 AM »
Quote
I believe in the KISS approach and consequently am only going with some square graver blanks and a sharpening guide

Make your own graver holder from whatever material you have handy.  This one is 3/8" aluminum rod, 6" long, and drilled for 1/8" HS lathe bits which are about $1.50 instead of the $5 that others charge.  Lindsay can provide you with an 1/8" mandrel to hold the tips in his templates.  Alternatively, you can pay the higher price for the 3/32" ones and use his regular setup.  A metal holder will transmit your hammer blows more readily to the tip, whereas a wooden one will absorb some of the blow.



Thanks TOF, you always have a practical way to accomplish things.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Gravers
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2014, 04:35:13 AM »
kutter, that is some really good information for someone looking to start engraving.  You are exactly on the money when you say, "Keep things simple, the trade is difficult enough to learn w/o all the confusing math and special this and that".  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline clockman

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Gravers
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2014, 05:39:21 AM »
I've been down this path too and feel compelled to chip in here.  First, if you are only going to build a couple of rifles, get someone else to do the engraving for you.  It'll save you tons of time practicing, many headaches and money in the long run.   But if you've got it as bad as I do there's no holding back.   I got the itch to engrave my own guns and bought a square blank engraver and beat the devil out of it not knowing what else to do.  Next I got a lesson on how to sharpen gravers.   Later, I got introduced to the Lindsey sharpening system and this is the best.  It gives you consistent results every time. 

 I waited years for John Shippers book on engraving  (Engraving Historic Firearms) before it finally it came out.  It will cost you a few dollars but is INVALUABLE if you are even thinking about giving engraving a try.     Shipper's book tells how to engrave scrolls, borders, background,  all by giving step by step instructions with plenty of pictures. He uses the hammer and chasing method (of course it works with air engravers too). You can find his book on the NMLRA website.

Keep It Simple is good advice, but you are still going to need a few things.  I recommend Shippers book first of all.   He shows how to sharpen gravers by hand and gets good results.   Next you will need some kind of vice to hold your work.   Start with any vice you can turn at least 180 degrees.  Between Shippers book, some square gravers, a light hammer and small vice, I think you can find out if you want to go out into deeper water and invest in a ball engravers vice, the Lindsey sharpening system or even then Lindsey engraving system.  My pocket book usually helps me decide. 

The Lindsey website is great for learning. There is also one called The Engravers Cafe that you should check out. Watch everything you can find.  Utube has some how to engrave videos that are good.  You can even seek advice on the Engravers Cafe and Lindsey's site and possibly find someone in your area who can give you a couple of lessons (it worked for me).  The final thing my mentor told me was, "the rest is practice, now go do that about a hundred times and hopefully you'll get it".

Best of luck.   Next thing,  ...practice, practice, practice.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Gravers
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2014, 05:41:02 AM »
Like TOF, I like to use a lathe bit set in an aluminum handle. I can send this in PDF format to anyone who wants it. Email me tcurran(at)fairpoint(dot)net, or PM me.


« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 05:43:51 AM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Gravers
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2014, 07:45:59 AM »
Is there a reason you use aluminum for the handle.    I was going to make a couple (for different size tool bits)  of metal holders for myself, but I was planing on using steel because I thought the weight would be steadying.  I was also going to use a 1/2" x 5" rod to give me better grip and control.    You see I lost a good bit of fine motor control in my hands (among other things) due to transverse myelitis, and small, light tools don't work so well for me.   I need something larger with some heft to hold on to it. Something long enough to allow me to use leverage to keep the tool in place is also helpful.   Does the momentum work too much against you to use steel of the size I am considering?  I do use a die sinker chisel for cutting barrel dovetails, but I would find that size, diameter and length,  too small for engraving work.   I just wouldn't be able to control it.   I use a file handle for my current graver.   

mjm46@bellsouth.net

  • Guest
Re: Gravers
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2014, 03:56:59 PM »
I have a couple of Lindsey's graver handles, they are well made but, I find them slippery to hold because of the polished finish. The other problem I have with the tool handle is, I would like it to have a flat spot or a rib on the handle to use as a reference point when you're chasing so you can FEEL the angle of the point as it's working. I could use grip tape and fix most of the problems. But I always find myself going back to my old wooden handles with the carriage bolt top.

Cheap and easy: A piece of dowel, whatever size you like, and a short carriage  bolt and head placed into the top end to transmit blows for hammering, the work end drilled to accept your graver. I also flatten the bottom side where my thumb rides and it works well to control the angle of the tip.

I am totally self taught and this may not work for anyone properly trained. But it works for me.

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Gravers
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2014, 04:52:50 PM »
 Like Kutter , my hands can no longer hold a chase graver  well .  As such I stopped engraving for many years.  , Some years back I won a Lindsey Classic and I must say it’s a god send .
 Yes  it’s a little expensive. But IMO worth every  cent .

 One thing I learned along time ago is that  doing engraving is  like a lot of other things in that a lot of folks are either into it or they aren’t .   If you find yourself  one of those who are  suddenly  fascinated by  doing it  then you will be looking for  new tooling  very quickly .
I think you will also find that  the quality of period engraving  on  American long rifles , will leave you frustrated   as your progress past it in your skill  . The reason for that is that  suddenly you will find yourself  un satisfied  with the work .  As was mentioned  boarders , cuts , depths of cuts , shading…. are often   inconsistent  and as  you progress  in perfecting your skills , its often rather hard  to accept those things as being right .

I would agree with the others in that the square graver is the best  to start with . Most everything can be done with  a simple square graver . Today I use the Lindsey universal point a lot  . But I also still have a square  with a steeper angle just as Kutter recommends .
I would also agree with  purchasing Shippers book .  Its very high quality printing  , written very well  with many examples for you to follow  that will help you  understand  not only designs but direction of cuts …….

 When it comes to vices .  , a  fixed bench vice  that you can walk around ,works very well  , I used one for years .   But at least for me when I moved to a ball type  vice , I quickly  began to wonder how it was that I  ever got along without it . I made mine from a bowling ball  and then mounted a self centering vice on the top of it . For a stand I  have a  stand I made from an old break drum and adjustable shock from an office chair . But frankly since I do most all my work anymore , while  under  a scope , its does not get adjusted  that often .
  For just starting out ,   just as was said by others , you don’t really need all that . But I would pick up a set of Loupes . Even a cheep set will  serve you well .
 Some may also disagree , but IMO  starting to learn to cut on a  mild steel practice plates  would be the way to go  until you get the basics down  then move on to brass .
 Myself I find  practicing on steel to be much easier  to maintain a proper depth of cut . IMO its also a lot more forgiving  for a  less then sharp point .  As such you can spend more time learning  the basics  vs. sharpening a point. Where as with brass  with it being much softer , it tends to allow the point to dive , leave jagged edges or simply plow a line vs. cut a line .
Now don’t get me wrong , that’s fine  and will help you greatly in learning to keep your graver sharp , which is a “must “ to learn

  What you chose to start out with  in the way of tooling is really up to you and what you can afford. As was said  for centuries folks  used nothing but basic hand made  tools and turned out wonderful works .
So really it’s a mater of learning to use the tools you have , applying  the knowledge  and experience that others have gained  to those tools  when you can .
 then practice , practice , practice .

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Gravers
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2014, 03:57:25 AM »
When ever I use a hammer and chisel I use the ones very much like Micah described. For professional use I think the GRS GraverMach is the Cadillac system. However probably no one on this forum does some of the stuff I do so it's not too relative. with few exceptions you can do anything that was done on an American mad muzzle loader with a chisel and hammer. I have only seen one American muzzle loader with hand push engraving on it. It was a gun made as a presentation piece by Simon North and was engraved by a engraver from  what became the American banknote company as I recall.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 04:01:14 AM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.